Tuesday, April 11, 2006

Anime World Order Show # 15 - Listener email and nothing but, with special guest Ichigo from Anime Pulse

If your download of this episode has overlapping audio for about ten seconds at 24:40, redownload the file. This was a problem in the first version that was uploaded that has been fixed.

This week we're breaking new grounds in laziness as we not only catch up on reading listener emails, we try out new microphones that sound well, bad. Fortunately, Ichigo from Anime Pulse is our guest to offer his unique and robotic-sounding perspective!

Click Here to Download

Since we're at the point where we have to beg for this stuff, please review us on iTunes! Also, vote for us at Podcast Alley, Podcast Pickle, Yahoo, and Digital Podcast. That apparently has to be done once every month, but fortunately it only takes a few seconds.

As we discussed on the show, here is the link to the official website for the anime Karas as provided by Jacqueline Ghaemmaghami, the Grassroots Campaign Director of M80 Marketing:

We should be getting a DVD review copy of Karas in the near future, so look forward to that review.

Next week, Gerald reviews the Often Overlooked theatrical anime title Taro the Dragon Boy, Clarissa talks about both the anime and manga for Eyeshield 21, and Daryl's search for THE TRUTH makes its triumphant and long-delayed return as he FINALLY get to reporting on what happened at Megacon, a sci-fi con aka garage sale with a lot of anime folks present.


Anonymous said...

WTF!!! You guys sure ripped on EVA. Why? Are you seriously telling us that you thought this show was shit? If so, there really is no reason to listen to you anymore as you truly do not know what the fuck your talking about.

Daryl Surat said...

I don't suppose you could at least sign "your" name so we know that "you're" not just trying to be contrary for the sake of itself? Assuming you're serious, I don't care what the sticker on the boxed set reads, Evangelion is not the greatest anime series ever made. Its popularity and influence on several aspects of the anime industry cannot be denied, and that at the very least will assure that ten years from now people will STILL be talking about Evangelion. Heck, it's already been ten years and people are still talking about it. Be that as it may, while some of the changes it brought about were good, many of them were not.

Ignoring all of that and considering the show alone, I believe that the show fails at what it set out to initially accomplish, and whether you believe that it's a fascinating failure to behold or not is up to you. In either case, go to the Evamonkey website that I linked to and talk about the finer points of Evangelion to your heart's content with Evangelion superfans, because I'm of the opinion that everything there is to say about Evangelion has been said and re-said to infinity.

I'm beating Carl Horn to the punch by quoting his quote before he can quote it:

"So what did the ending mean?"

"Well, you see, that's not important as your own life—if you like the series, you should understand that I made it out of the lives of myself and the staff. I wanted the actors to feel what their characters were going through, not just act like they were feeling it. So if the characters stood out for you, it's because I tried not to have them be real people, but to have real people be them. Again, whatever EVA achieved came out of the passion of real lives, so—"

"No, really, what did the ending mean?"

"I put in the last two episodes on a stage set, and showed you the script and the storyboards. In case you missed the point the first time, in the movie I turned the camera on the audience and then took it out into the streets..."

"C'mon, Anno! WTF? Hey, whose soul was in...Where are you going? What a ripoff! I heard he was crazy anyway."

Ali said...

Wow, what is it with the ridiculous comment trolls today? Erin and I got ragged on this morning over at NC, and now here? To quote our dear anon poster, "WTF!!!"

Thanks for playing my voicemail, btw! Though my inner Clarissa fangirl wishes she'd had time to offer an agree/disagree. Alas!

Looking forward to the next show, regardless :)

Foshi said...

I have to agree with anonymous. The only reason I am still watching anime is because of Neon Genesis Evangelion, Akira, and Ghost in the Shell. I love mystery, suspense, and artful media.

To Daryl, just how did Evangelion fail? And, how do you know what it originally set out to accomplish? There is a difference between understanding something and not liking it. I can understand if you were unable to understand Evangelion, but at the same time it wasn't meant for everyone to understand. People take out of it what they will based on their own experiences.

RahXephon better than Eva. ROFLOL. Only watching the first four episodes of Wolf's Rain. ROFLOL. What the hell are you guys smoking? Can I have some?

Daryl Surat said...

"Clearly you didn't understand it for you to say you didn't like it" is a defense commonly brought up by comicbook fans, particular people who idolize Watchmen or Sandman. It's of particular annoyance to me, since it suggests the notion that it's impossible for someone to understand something which others consider "deep and meaningful" and simultaneously be dismissive of it. That's how the "bad" otaku think!

We can hazard a pretty darn good guess as to what Evangelion was trying to do based on our knowledge of history. For starters, we've seen (or at the very least, are aware of) Space Runaway Ideon. Anyone out there making claims about how groundbreaking and astonishing Evangelion was that does not know what Space Runaway Ideon is should seriously go download Ideon and watch it now, because Eva took a LOT from that show and nobody seems to be aware that the show even exists. In keeping with the then-Gainax tradition, Evangelion was supposed to take the conventions of a genre--in this case, mecha shows such as Mazinger Z, Mobile Suit Gundam, and Ideon--and turn it all on its head.

But ultimately, we believe that Evangelion abides by those conventions far more than it defies or twists them, and it therefore fails at what it set out to accomplish in favor of accomplishing something else. Christian Smith (who's smarter than us) opines that while Eva is a failure, it's still a fascinating one to behold. The written statements section of Evamonkey (seriously people, go there) as well as its forums contain several lengthy diatribes on this very subject; at the very least, read what Carl Horn (who's also smarter than us) and Brian Shea wrote.

But it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree about what we think of Evangelion because that's not what this podcast is about. There is no shortage of other anime podcasts out there who'll gladly go on about Eva to your heart's content, so we'd prefer to talk about things you might not hear quite so much about. If you think our indifference towards Evangelion somehow invalidates our positions on Taro the Dragon Boy, then so be it.

For what it's worth, those positions you mentioned us having were actually things put forth by our special guest, Ichigo from Anime Pulse. We don't think you should watch Wolf's Rain period, nor do we think RahXephon is anything to write home about. So send your hate mail to him! :)

Chris Sobieniak said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Chris Sobieniak said...

To Daryl,

I can understand why it is that there are still too many that still want to say EVA is the greatest thing on the planet, when in fact, people like me could see the writing on the wall too early, and it's hard for us to state our two cents about the absolute truth when they're just going to hate us for it (because of the recent airing on Adult Swim, we've probably got a few dozen more of these guys out there rooting for this seires already). I got one guy in a forum I post to who is in that mode over watching the TV show and movies, and doesn't understand why I favored just the TV series over the movies if you had to watch it. I was exposed to EVA about 6-7 years ago (both the TV series and movies), and my views of EVA were already cemented by the end of "End of EVA," and I never want to re-watch that again!

Again, knowone can take a joke that easily. :)

Also, I agree with Gerald that I also enjoyed the OVA "Tenchi Muyo!" a lot, the movies were OK, but the rest were trash.

Nice to see a plug for "Cartoon Brew" in the links as well, I like visiting that place daily for some animation rarities or upcoming releases I might try to track down.

Thanks for the link for the "Disipline" ad copy. If I can hunt down a mike for my PC, I'll see what I can do!

Great to see that "Taro the Dragon Boy" will be on the next show, I have yet to buy the DVD, but stll have my old RCA/Columbia Pictures Home Video release from the 80's (wasn't too hard to find it).

Zero-chan said...

Being a nitpicky video game nerd, I feel it is my duty to inform you that Phantasmagoria's music was NOT done by Uematsu. Phantasmagoria was the name of an original album he produced, and coincidentally happened to share the same name as the game. So yes, they're wholly unrelated.

PS. I don't care what Ferricide says about it, fuck eva :D

Michael En said...

Hm...okay...clearly this has become an argument over Eva...bleh.
Look, none of you really need to agree with AWO, nor do you need to listen to them. It brings up a very simple concept, of opinion.
They think it's crap.
You think it's the Holy Grail of Bible.
That's how it is, but that doesn't say that you can just insult them, becuase they insulted a show.
Oh right...
It's just a show for crying out loud, there's no need to be so defensive about it.

Thanks for mentioning my name for the last three minutes; I feel special now.

Gerald said...

I feel I should jump in here and make it clear that of the three of us, Daryl hates Eva the most. I certainly don't care for the series, but I also don't hate it as much. Really because I treat the show as sort of a regular giant robot show with a lot of BS religious imagery. I dislike it for the same reasons that I dislike games like Halo. Halo, by itself is a very normal shooter that's a bit below average to me. But what's grown up around it is insane and worst of all, every subsequent first person shooter (and every giant robot/sci-fi show with Eva) has to imitate it (Brain Powerd, Gasaraki, and tons of others). Maybe if I didn't see an Eva ripoff every other month, then I wouldn't hate the show as much. I guess I'm a bit unusual as I enjoy the show much more for the giant robot aspects than anything else. Yes, Shinji is horribly annoying (so is Amuro and most other main male characters in giant robot shows, even if Shinji generally beats them all) yes it goes overboard with the crazy, makes no sense ending, but as a giant robot show I enjoy it as such.

Someone, Somewhere said...

This all started because of the strong negative language used on the show. I'm of the side that thinks Eva is incredible, but I can understand the opposition. People have their own opinions and universal agreement is impossible. I know many who hate Miyazaki films. Just goes to show that nothing in the anime world is completely perfect with everyone.

About Bones. They know how to make some good anime. FMA, E7, Wolf's Rain and a few others are incredible. As most anime nowadays is pure shit, just checkout the new season of anime, I enjoy studios that know how to please their fans with serious high quality work.

Scott Green said...

I think most criticisms of Evangelion are valid, but I'd also say it was a fascinating work that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone. I think I got what I needed out of the TV ending, but I wouldn't care to try to explain or debate it. I'm pretty lost in the movies. But, just because you can't explain something doesn't mean it doesn't effect you. I can't explain the vast majority of paintings in a museum, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try to examine them. Maybe it's like the painting Jackson Pollack threw together at the deadline for Peggy Guggenheim, and maybe there's something there. If nothing else, I'd call it memorable. Watching the sea of direc episode for the first time is still a favorite anime experience.
That the production was a mess and they were battling with the TV network, and all behind the scenes troubles contributed to Evangelion. As much as the symbolism slight of hands make the series infinately debated, the lack of solid planning gives it a sense of urgency and inspiration. I'd argue that it holds together much more satifyingly than other problem ladden productions have.
I also think the timing of when it came out in the US and in Japan contributed to its legend. If it came out day today in either place, I don't think would get the same amount of notice.
If there's some thing that would make me question my fascination with the series, it would be the number of intelligent people I've known who were interested in the series for most of its run, but couldn't be bothered to finish it.
Yet, given that he ended up married to Moyoco Anno and making bubbly works like Cutey Honey, I'd say Hideaki Anno got the last laugh one way or the other,
Speaking of that crew, what's the Anime World Order line on The Wings of Honneamise?

Daryl Surat said...

I'd say that Gainax's Wings of Honneamise is among the best theatrical anime films ever, but it's not like the number of times I've watched it extends into the triple digits. Heck, I don't think the number of times I've watched any movie has even gone into the double digits. The only reason we haven't talked about it yet is that we're not sure if we can do it justice given what other, smarter people have already said.

This episode of the Ninja Consultant podcast was the first episode of theirs I'd ever listened to, and their review of Wings of Honneamise made me realize that none of us is capable of evaluating things from a film major's perspective, which is basically the level a movie like that warrants. The best I could offer would be along the lines of "here's a cool movie that was the first professional work that Gainax ever did; it took them decades to make back their money on it and the R1 DVD has awful video quality despite having fantastic extras." I can't help but feel that I'm missing the larger point.

But since you asked, I think we'll make fools out of ourselves and try and review Honneamise once it gets rereleased through--oddly enough--the Honneamise label. You know that's bound to happen now that Manga lost the rights.

From Wings of Honneamise to Mahoromatic. How the mighty have fallen.

Gilles Poitras said...

A year or two ago I asked Yamaga san about the recent work Gainax was doing in relation to their earlier science fiction otaku friendly works. His reply was that those were fun to make but brought in too little money the recent works are keeping the company afloat.

For more on the history of Gainax everyone should go out and get a copy of The Notenki Memoirs by Yasuhiro Takeda. This an interesting glimpse of the science fiction scene in Japan and Gainax's place in that world. It also dispells many of the common rumours associated with Gainax.

Chris Sobieniak said...

Still seems like there are those that still feels Gainax is in a different place than they had been in the past. Still funny if the more recent works are raking in the cash for that studio.

Gerald said...

So the previous works were "fun"? That's pretty sad to hear that Honneamise, Gunbuster, and Nadia were really just "fun". It makes me wonder when they'll go back to creating work that are "fun" again. I would hope that the massive amounts of money that Evangelion made, along with the other shows like Mahoromatic and such would make them enough money that they could do something that they felt was "good/fun" again, I mean it has been almost twelve years since Evangelion.

I had no idea that The Notenki Memoirs: Studio Gainax And The Men Who Created Evangelion had even been released here. It obviously had a very good marketing campaign since it's been out for almost a year (unless the date on Amazon's site is wrong) and your comments were the first I'd heard that the book existed. I'll have to read that since it seems like an extremely unusual book to be released here. Maybe I can see where Gainax went wrong.

Alfonso Alba said...

For god nows how long i've been waiting for someone to agree with me that EVA was nothing but a pretentious condescending, arrogant, pseudo deeply-psycological piece of crap. I watched the entire show and I enjoyed for what it is... A nonsensical plot filled with good animation an a decent musical score.

Throw in a couple of bible references and people think you are a genious (the matrix... wink, wink). I dunno why so many started to look for hidden meaning to the series. Hello people! there is NONE. This movie was entirely made to confuse you even more if you try to come up with a meaning.

You want something deep? Watch the latest seasons of South Park, now that is a show for people who like to read between the lines...

Christian Daly said...

Wow. Internet pissing about Eva. Every repost is, well, you know the score.

I enjoyed the show enough to be one of those nerds with the NERV logo tattooed on my arm for the rest of my life. However, as time goes on and things change, I become increasingly aware that none of us were really the audience for that show and are largely missing the point. I liked the ending to the TV series. Shinji realized his own self-worth and was able to grow the fuck up. The movie was certainly something else, though, and we're possibly missing the point even more than in the TV ending.

A real breakthrough in 'getting it' for me was reading Takashi Murakami's Little Boy and understanding a lot more of what went into that show and who it was really aimed at. My understanding, and your mileage may vary, is that the whole thing is meant to, like the mighty Carl Horn quote mentions, be a reflection of the audience. That reflection is of miserable fucking otaku that can't break out of their own heads long enough to see what's happening around them. By the end, when Shinji is able to understand his own value and the value of other people, these same otaku should understand there's a whole world out there and they need to open up to it.

On a larger scale, as the entire cultural identity of Japan is in somewhat of a crisis, the accusation can be applied to the entire country. From the economic highs of the 1980's to the crushing recession of the 1990's (and on), Japan as a country could have been personified as stunned into submission. People really seemed to lose the connection that made the country such an economic juggernaut in the first place. It was effectively like an atomic bomb delivered to the national identity.

Otaku culture was and still is on the rise in Japan and it's not really a good thing. The concept of 'moe' and 'moeru' can (and likely do) emotionally cripple people into the almost self-caricature of the otaku. Eva seemed to mark the change in otaku culture away from people that could find quality and value in something many people would have regarded as garbage to people that get caught up in a perceived love for a fictional character.

Eva seems, to me, in retrospect, to be a warcry by Anno against what the audience was doing and was becoming. It feels like it wasn't meant to celebrate otaku or be something that should be some meaningful reflection of an otaku's life, but instead it is a wake-up call.

While not specifically about this very same point, required reading should be Hiroki Azuma's lecture from the Superflat exhibition in West Hollywood, 2001. The concepts of 'moe' are explored more in the book, which is well worth every penny.

After all that, I was hoping it might be possible to get the ad copy for Discipline copied to a more work-safe location (like here) so I can get cracking on an idea I had while being bored at work. Can you make a nerd's dreams reality? I suppose I could work on it at home, but then I've got nothing to do at the office. Thanks, guys!

Daryl Surat said...

I certainly understand the reasoning behind why Gainax's post-Eva output has been so...pandering--witness my comment about how Honneamise took ages to break even--but I still can't say I approve of the methods. Perhaps if they'd release some lowest common denominator thing designed to make money for the sake of funding some projects of merit, I'd be whistling a different tune. Still, if Anno and company truly were dedicated to the message that "Evangelion truly was a wake-up call to otaku," something tells me that they would not have released quite so many otaku goods and merchandise pertaining to the series. Oh well, I guess this is what happens when you get sick of going bankrupt over and over.

(By the way: contrary to what it may seem like and what Gerald said, I don't actively hate Evangelion so much as don't care about it. By contrast, Gerald actually does hate Gundam. And Lupin the Third.)

In writing this response, I somehow screwed up and deleted Alfonso's comment with the text of the Discipline ad copy. Here now is that text once more as it appears verbatim: what better way to cap off 20 some odd posts where we scream about Evangelion for the billionth time?

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Takuro, our hero, is drowning in sex! All the sexy girls with huge tits are after his manhood. And who can blame them. It's a throbbing monster that keeps growing when inside a girl's mouth and pussy! It can cum again and again for god knows how many times!

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Chris Sobieniak said...

Thanks for the ad-copy Daryl, I already saved it on my end a few days ago, but still need to hunt down a mike to use!

But yeah, if EVA was supposed to be a wake-up call, it's rather funny how the merchandise sill gets sold either way. The message just hasn't hit the nail in the head deep enough.

alexander strange said...

Hold up, someone put Wolf's Rain on a list of good BONES shows? I think there's something fishy here.

Also, since you forgot to mention the new new Yamato project, here's a new Tenchi project!

SDShamshel said...

People seem to be mentioning Wolf's Rain and Eureka Seven in the same sentence.

Honestly, I consider Eureka Seven to be Bones's apology for Wolf's Rain and it pains me to see them mentioned as equals.

? said...

I can't be the only person to like Wolf's Rain, can I? Excellent music, interesting story and characters, amazing animation, a few good action scenes. Yeah, I didn't like the four garbage filler episodes. Nor, the main character Kiba, but it was still a good anime. Not the best ever, or equal to E7. Still, it is worth watching if your a fan of drama.

Mike Toole said...

I watched the first two DVDs of Wolf's Rain and liked where it was going. I guess I ought to finish it up. After I finish Fruits Basket. And Galaxy Railways. And all the other shit I have to watch.

Gilles Poitras said...


I think you will find The Notenki Memoirs: Studio Gainax And The Men Who Created Evangelion interesting. The book is well below the radar of most fans, and book dealers making it hard to find.

I'm of the opinion that Gainax has been experimenting with other story types, for good and bad. FLCL pretty much worked, in spite of being very confusing. Abenobashi held it's own, Mahromatic fizzeled out.

Yamaga's comment actually was more along the line of that doing works aimed at otaku was not bringing in the money. But then Gainax really did not get noticed by the public until they did Nadia. I hope to hook up with Yamaga in the near future and will try to again bring up the question with him and suggest why otaku friendly works may work in these days.

Gerald said...

Actually work like Mahoromatic and He Is My Master are aimed squarely at the otaku audience and that seems to be the problem. Since the otaku audience in Japan seems to be represented by 30 somethings who fawn over slave girls ala. EVERYTHING that's come out. Their earlier shows like Honneamise and more specifically, Nadia, seemed to have a wider appeal, even though Honneamise took 8 or so years to make its money back.

Christian Daly said...

I'm still buying that Eva was meant to rile up fans more than anything else, but the merchandising end is a really interesting one. As I understand it, that part became what kept the doors open after some wicked bad tax problems. Between the merchandise and the inherent quality of the show to allow fans to project themselves onto it, Eva really marked the change between old otaku and new otaku cultures. It's like they were simultaneously creating a new culture and damning it at the same time.

I've long figured Gainax has been using the shows that tend to pander to the lowest common fanboy denominator and merchandise revenue to fund other, more 'risky' shows like FLCL and Abenobashi. I just hope we get something good again next.

As I've read, old-school otaku really hate the younger fans. There are some larger themes that seemed to find their way into a lot of older shows and movies that have since been largely abandoned by newer fans. The huge shift, as I'm perceiving it, is from the theme of 'we can save society by destroying the old and creating the new, together as otaku' to 'let this be your emo outlet - don't let things get you down, we'll help cheer you up'. It's really a shift from a culture of creativity and productivity to a culture of consumerism and detachment. Not that old-school otaku were any kinds of social paragons or anything. I mean, they're all horrible nerds, but one set is about building outward and the other is about building inward.

Giles, thanks for mentioning the value of that Gainax book. I'd seen a listing for it on Amazon before, but I hadn't picked it up. It's definitely moved up my list, now.

Clarissa said...

That wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm not an expert or anything, in fact I've never even been to Japan, but it seems like that's something happening in a larger scale across Japanese culture. Whether it's otaku watching the newest moe show and abandoning human relationships for virtual girlfriends, or teenage girls prostituting themselves to buy designer handbags, Japan often seems to revel in being a country of fashion victims and merchandising addicts. (Not that those things don't happen here, but it seems even greater over there than here. I think Morning Musume can beat Britney Spears for unabashed manufactured pop idol glory any day.)

Actually, isn't that sort of what Paranoia Agent was about? Japanese people burying themselves in vapid entertainment and calming themselves with 'moe' characters rather than facing their problems and doing things about their lives. If anybody hasn't seen that show yet, I highly recommend it--one of the few really meaningful anime shows I've seen made recently.

Dave Riley said...

I absolutely agree with Clarissa on the Paranoia Agent-tip. It just makes my heart soar that there's codified proof of people in Japan who are going 'Hey guys, don't you think this is a little excessive?' The whole 'Wake up everyone!!' message of the show really acts like a "bitchslap" to the anime culture/community, and in that way some of the people who have commented here might find it analogus to Evangelion.

Some, I guess. Some'll probably just go "OMGWTF!! YOU ARE SO NOT COMPARING THAT SHOW TO MY BABY, DESU NE?!"

Still, really great show guys. I'm super-double excited to hear Clarissa talk about Eyeshield 21, which I'm starting to feel like is the only good thing coming out of Japan right now.

...you better like it... A LOT...

Anonymous said...

"Cabbage" refers to money, FYI. He's saying he's too poor for conventions.

Clarissa said...

That's rather what I guessed, but I must admit I've never heard that bit of slang. Maybe it's just one of those regional differences.

Al said...

2 Quick questions:
1. Gerald why do you hate Gundam and Lupin? I was sort of curious.

2. Space Runaway Ideon - Worth watching as a non-eva fan?

Gerald said...

Sorry, be prepared for a horribly long rant here:

al:I really don't hate all of Gundam or Lupin. I liked the original Gundam movies and I haven't seen Zeta Gundam (the supposed pinnicle of Gundam anime), but I guess the generalization sort of fits since I've never liked a single Gundam show that's come out since then. I've given a lot of them tries like SEED, Wing, G Gundam, War in the Pocket, etc... and they mostly have the same problems (G has different problems to me but that's a different story). When I watch a Gundam show the Tomino style just annoys me. Gundam shows that he works on just appear to me like he's saying "Look at me you bastards, I'm fucking Tomino, I'm a god damn genius and I changed anime and I'll do whatever I want in this show and you'll like it since you’re all slobbering dogs that want anything I crap out with the word Gundam on it." I got that impression with not only shows he directed (including non-Gundam shows like Brain Powerd) but also later Gundam shows that he had nothing to do with. Also, the way the stories play out in Gundam are not in my taste since most of the major storyline is just read to you right after the opening animation and then it's on with the annoying depressed characters characters (except Char that is). Gundam really should have conclusively ended years ago with Char's Counterattack, but just keeps going because it's a damn money machine that the only purpose of is to sell model kits and garbage videogames. I'm not saying every show designed to sell toys is inherently bad as most anime really is designed to do that; Gundam just manages to piss me off more since it's a show that's targeted to 20 and 30 something’s (if it's not I'd like to see a 14 year old afford some of those super high quality pre-built Gundams) and, in my opinion, should have ended years ago. I really have tried to watch SEED and all the others, but never got beyond a dozen or more episodes since I just hate the style used to move stories along in Gundam and the insanely convoluted storylines that require one to consult summaries in order to make sense of everything.

Now Lupin is really not something I hate, Daryl just likes to say I do to make me look bad :). I hate pretty much everything beyond the mid-80's that's been put out with a few modern exceptions, but I love Castle of Cagliostro and the original TV series which I watched religiously on Adult Swim. The modern OAVs I just don't care for. Lupin, to me, is almost like the Simpsons in that it's just stretching for something new and has to come up with more and more ludicrous plotlines. I know people whose only expectation from Lupin is to have it be a crazy, insane story, but I can’t say that’s my expectation. The modern OAVs seem to exemplify the “we have no idea left so we’re going to pull complete nonsense our of our ass” ideal. One of them featured the gang on an island that they couldn’t leave because they all got a disease that will kill them (this is pointless by the way since the disease is just forgotten halfway through), and there are fight scenes in which Lupin fires a bullet by throwing a knife at the back-center of it and igniting it, and they’re attacked by this henchmen who is made entirely out of gold but doesn’t know it. To me that just asks for a suspension of disbelief that is beyond my capabilities in the world of Lupin I’ve got many more examples, but I just haven’t seen a good Lupin production since The Fuma Conspiracy and has seemed to fall into similar traps like Gundam in that it just has to be produced on a yearly basis and fans will accept it regardless of quality.

That was a horribly long rant and I’m sorry for that, but those are two subjects that I’ve had long arguments about. Since Gundam and Lupin both span such a long time period in anime and since there’s so much of it out there, both series really embody the entire breadth of quality in anime from classic (Cagliostro and the original Gundam movies) to just total and utter crap (G Gundam in my opinion and Gundam Wing, Dead or Alive, Harimao’s Trasure, etc…) and the vast majority of it is just in the middle as totally forgettable and bland. I guess that’s why most assume I hate Gundam and Lupin. Now I really don’t want to make this explode with the hardcore Lupin and Gundam fans since this thread is long enough already so let’s leave it at that.

Daryl Surat said...

"When I watch a Gundam show the Tomino style just annoys me . . . with not only shows he directed but also later Gundam shows that he had nothing to do with."

Just so everyone's keeping score here, the Gundam shows he did + the ones he didn't do = ALL OF GUNDAM. Well, excepting Char's Counterattack, since Gerald hasn't seen that. Gerald, I'll save you the time: given what you just wrote, you're not going to like Zeta Gundam. You're also not going to like Giant Robo, while I'm at it. The Magic 8-Ball says the reason given will be "people have been telling me for years that these are the best examples of their type, and I saw them and they didn't live up to the hype."

Regarding Lupin, the series on Adult Swim is the second one (not the first), you've mentally combined In Memory of the Walter P-38 with Dead or Alive, and since I can read your mind, you believe Castle of Cagliostro is more a Miyazaki film than a Lupin film proper, so it doesn't technically count. It is one thing to dislike Legend of the Gold of Babylon, but if you dislike the entirety of Lupin the Third save three things out of like three decades worth of Lupin material, then uh...yeah, you're not terribly keen on that. That's about equal to the percentage of Tenchi Muyo that I can tolerate.

That sure was a lot of writing just to prove me right (AS I ALWAYS AM, LAUGH OUT LOUD)! Oh well, anything to further procrastinate finishing the next episode. Listening to these Megacon interviews is HARD, people.

alfonso alba said...

I just heard the show again, and noticed (again) your recommendation for Monster... I watched the first episodes of that show about a year ago, didn't like it.

I watched again since you recommended it, and I still didn't find it engaging, I really tried to like the show but it goes soooo slooooow.

I could only stomach it up to the 5th episode and I reluctantly let it go. I really need to know after what episode things start picking up, because the general storyline seems a little cliché, the main character is not very interesting, and it has your run of the mill murder intrigue. If I didn't like it from the start, is there any chance that I'll do it after some more episodes??

Dave Riley said...

Most likely you won't find anything in Monster to turn you around. I started watching it at AWO's recommendation and am about halfway through the show.

Halfway through the general flow of the show is the same as the beginning. If you don't like the pacing at the start, you're not gonna like it at all as far as I can tell.

Al said...

Gerald: Thanks for the rant. If nothing else I enjoyed reading it. I figured if you disliked either well-established franchise of anime you will get a good number of people arguing with you. I actually like the Lupin I have seen and can take or leave most of Gundam but I support your dislike of sections of both franchises.

Alfonso Alba : I have to agree with Dave. I have seen all of Monster and I have to say that if you’re not hooked by episode 5 then your most probably never going to get into the series. I read the first book of the manga and I HAD to know how it was going to end. After I finished the manga I watched the anime as the lazy man’s way of rereading the manga. But the plot never really picks up past where you have seen. It always takes it time getting where it has to go. There are intense parts and actions scenes but they few and far between. I thought it was well paced and basically builds nicely but if you find the show slow and boring now you are not going to enjoy the rest of the show.

Gerald said...

Actually I don't really understand what you're trying to say. You said that I hated Gundam and Lupin the Third and I'm saying that I don't hate all of it and I made it clear and as to why I didn't like most of it. And what point does it make that I like the second series or the first? I liked what I saw on Adult Swim. It also doesn't make a difference to me if I'm getting OAVs mixed up since for the most part they're all insane. And considering I enjoy most of Lupin prior to The Fuma Conspiracy which was made in 1987 and Lupin started in 71, that's about 16 years of material that I've liked of Lupin with smatterings elsewhere. And how can I hate all of Gundam if I like the original movies?

Not too sure what you were trying to say by that post Daryl, except point out some mistakes from shows I watched once four years ago, but you know my feeling about Gundam and Tomino and regardless I have always and will continue to give every show a shot of impressing me.

Young Freud said...

I have to concur with Gerald's comment about M. Shirow being a decent fighting artist, well, before he starting drawing anthropomorphic gang-bangs with lactating, big-breasted cowgirls and barely dressed cyborg policewomen. I think the best example Gerald really should've been going for was the fight scene in Appleseed vol. 4, with the knife fight between Deunan and three terrorists. It was well-drawn, well-choreographed, and easy to follow. However, the fights in GITS2 seem too fluid to the point they are now rather confusing than exciting.

About Death Note, I have to agree with Clarissa and Allison. While I haven't read the past the first volume, I can see Allison's point about L. and would like to see Light fry, and it should've been a good short manga series. I also feel that there was too many stupid characters, no realistic thinking, where people who should know better are fooled by Light into getting themselves killed. After doing more research, I found that the mangaka doesn't bother to follow his own rules at the start of the series, just to justify or provide a challenge to Light. I don't know, maybe smarter characters would be a start.

Oh, and the difference between Rosette in Chrono Crusade and Guilty Gear's Bridget is that Rosette carries a gun, while Bridge has one.

Damien said...

Love your podcast—I'll have to send in an email sometime. Maybe a voicemail, if I can manage to do it over the weekend…

Great episode, it's nice to hear what other listeners are thinking. I say you should do email readings about once every 8 or 10 episodes.

Keith said...

What are Evangelion and Gundam? Is this some sort of underground anime or something? I've never heard of them.

Chris Sobieniak said...

Heh, cute comment the last guy posted! (hope that was being a joke than real)

Gerald said...

Considering his personal site has an "Animeeighties Month" I would hope so. :)

Anonymous said...

Hey guys, where's the new episode? The wait is killing me.

Daryl Surat said...

Yeah, sorry about the episode delay. The new episode isn't out yet since 1. Gerald and Clarissa are pretty pressed for time due to finals and such, and 2. I put off doing the Megacon report for so long because it takes really long to do, especially when your computer keeps BLUE SCREEN CRASHING AND COSTING YOU TWO HOURS OF WORK, AAARGH

With any luck, we can release it before the end of the week, but as a warning, it'll run longer than usual. In an effort to diminish this somewhat, our response to Zero-chan is going to be available as a second MP3 that we'll only link to from the show notes, but we'll mention it in the episode.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can manage having a new episode next week. Jacon is next week, and all of us have panels to finalize for that. Of these panels, mine is BY FAR the best. I promise the con report for that will come out faster than the Megacon one. :)

"You said that I hated Gundam and Lupin the Third and I'm saying that I don't hate all of it and I made it clear as to why I didn't like most of it."

This picture never gets old.

Zero-chan said...

Wow, I feel special now. *snif* I love you guys (;_;)

Chris Sobieniak said...

I only wish I had a life like that! Already feel like doing a podcast based on my own musings in the animation world if or when that happens.

Mike said...


MOH said...

Well, it's no suprise why there are criticisms to Evangelion, I don't mind that I do see the show's faults and negative sides but I like Evangelion personally I like Daryl, Gerald and Clarissa's review on Evangelion but to defend Hideaki Anno (also quoting Richard Christian Matheson) "I think that the people who make the greatest contributions are the ones who have in some viable degree have violated the genre." of course R.C. Matheson wasn't talking about Anno (He was talking about Tobe Hooper actually) but I think what Matheson has said pretty much sums who Hideaki Anno is when it comes to Evangelion but that was probably pointless to say but also speaking of Tobe Hooper, I wonder if ADV Films would consider hiring Tobe Hooper to direct a live action EVA movie, I mean he needs to do something controversial again, after all Texas Chainsaw Massacre is the reason is the reason why films like Chainsaw still exist.

Anonymous said...

I cant imagine my life without evangelion....I first saw it 8 years ago when I was 12 and if I never watched it I prob wouldve killed myself by now...Im serious...even though Ive been through nights where Id lay on my lawn on a cold winter night with just a sheet wondering if im the only real person in the world or if im god....Come and say eva sucks to my face!!!!