Thursday, June 11, 2009

Anime World Order Show # 80b - Let's News Lengthy!

The news segment for Show #80 ran long, so here it is in its own separate file. Numbered #80b because most of you guys said you didn't mind it in our online poll. SORRY, BOSTONIANS!

Click Here to Download


In this incredibly long episode of the news, probably the longest we've done yet, we talk about many things, most importantly DARKSIDE BLUES has been re licensed. Also in the news, Christopher Handley is probably going to go to jail for owning a comic book, you can read some of the details here, but be warned that the article, while well written was written by guy that might have some conflicts of interest.

We also get largely pissed off at everyone over the recent leak of an episode of One Piece which seemed like a case of lax security on Funimation's part and general internet douche-bagery on anime fans' part, and as soon as we thought this was all over, it happened again!

In other bad news, Shojo Beat is no longer accepting subscriptions. A magazine we all thought was doing well, but was probably like Pulp, the mid-90's manga anthology by Viz that everyone seemed to like and no one bought. Let's hope Otaku USA can avoid such a fate. In some of our rare gaming news Tatsunoko vs. Capcom has been set for US release. This gives us a bit of hope that non-Original Generation Super Robot Wars may get a release here, which is still incredibly unlikely (PROVE ME WRONG), but we still hold out hope.

Finally, as a warning to Kenta Miura of Berserk fame, Kaoru Kurimoto has passed away, thankfully, we understand that she actually finished the core of the Guin Saga story before dying, so there will not be another Wheel of Time issue.

In some other, far less impressive news, there will be more Yamato, time will tell if it's bad or not, there's some BGC movie, maybe happening which I won't even link because we don't care about this until filming actually happens, Japan's ban on rape games will have no effect on anything at all, and Casey Rankin, the completely fluent English language singer of the excellent Orguss Opening and Ending passed away.

Here's the terrific opening and ending:

Next time we continue with your horribly failed experiment of choosing what other people will watch, with Gerald's episode. Daryl will review Kekko Kamen of Go Nagai fame, Clarissa will review Butt Attack Punisher Girl Gautaman (see a trend here?) and Gerald will arguably have the hardest thing to review with Fairy Squadron Yukikaze.


156 comments:

Anonymous said...

A theory on the FMA leak...

They were probably posting to a caching service and didn't bother putting it in a non-public directory. These services take a little time to mirror the file. A certain tech-podcaster had this problem in the early days with Akamai, when the delayed release would cause some people to see a corrupt file if someone guessed the filename correctly and downloaded it early; causing everyone in that particular region to download a broken file. This problem was fixed by uploading it in a non-public directory and then moving it. Pretty simple eh?

Also on the fans complaining bit: the number one complaint I'm hearing is not of releasing faster, but because there is no worldwide release. The internet is accessible worldwide, and certain fansubbers couldn't care less of Funimations attempt to stream it online: because they couldn't access it. They don't care if its because of some rights issue, and don't see the need to start a company themselves to license the material

Anonymous said...

(continued; because I fail at pushing the correct button)

--if they can simply download the 720p raw of FMA and sub it immediately; some groups manage to release it same-day or shortly thereafter.

Okay, that is enough ranting for today. Its been an interesting 47 minutes so far...

wah said...

I am a bit worried over the Handley case myself, but that isn't really stopping me from buying hundreds of loli-centric doujinshi over here... nor is it stopping me from posting about such activity on a public forum, wwwwww

Watashiya Kaworu, Kojika manga-ka. Female.

Gundam Wing is more popular than you think over here. It's not crazy popular, but during my manga club's jikoshoukai all the girls were like "MY FAVOURITE ANIME IS GUNDAM WING, SEED, SEED DESTINY AND 00" or they said Hetalia. Maybe I've said this here already.

I got the Yamato promo disc in the mail because it was free. The first shot you see is of a ship with BLUE NOAH written across the side. I thought to myself NISHIZAKI, THAT IS NOT THE YAMATO!!! The CG actually didn't seem too bad to me... not movie quality by any standard, and Yamato really does demand 2D all the way. There was some 2D character animation in the promo disc, and all it told me was that the new character designs are awful.

Also, I saw a Yamato 2520 soundtrack in Mandarake in Shibuya...

Kulag said...

An article explaining Funimation's 'leaks":
http://www.mod16.org/hurfdurf/?p=61

Laika said...

I'm sort of surprised that you didn't mention anything about viz signature's new project with mangos being serialized in Ikki when you were talking about Shoujo beat and Pulp. A lot of seinen fans involved with scanlation are sort of interested in this project since Ikki does have a lot of interesting series that I'm sure you guys know about from your co-worker's articles in OtakuUSA and such, but looking at the timing of this and the track history, I feel pretty doubtful. Do you guys have any opinions about this direction that viz seems to be pushing? Or the digital (only?) distribution of manga that they seem to be trying out?

subatomicbrainfreeze said...

Correction: Ed Chavez was telling us at the last Vertical meetup that Kurimoto had actually finished up Guin's story at book 100. She was writing side stories up until she passed away.

VZ said...

I don't have much to add. I think the whole Handley case is fucked up just because we're all moral panic alarmists when is comes to the safety of children.

You guys didn't talk about the shitty pay animators in japan get or the poll Funimation did for what current anime they should licensed.

Keith said...

I generally do not wear product branded t-shirts, but if you make a shirt that says "Anime World Order: We Need More Money for Coke and Howitzers" I will buy.

Patrick McNamara said...

I was able to watch FMA:B episode 9 last Wednesday on Funimation's site, but sometime afterwards they took it down and last I checked it's still down.

Half the first Pilgrims who came to America died. Even the exploration of space has cost lives. Whatever trouble they might have now is not an excuse to try again. At least nobody has died.

Gilles Poitras said...

On the Handley case, the bust was 2006, the court hearings began in 2007.

Also folks need to remember, as you pointed out, that these charges apply to any character under the age of 18. So May's blow job in v.1 of Gunsmith Cats is problematic as is damn near any erotic anime and manga released in the US.

nj said...

I suppose those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks...so I can only hope that Funimation manages to get better security, for real this time around, and can persuade the Japanese to start the streams back up again. Otherwise, nothing will change.

I honestly need to get back to Berserk sometime...maybe whenever the current arc ends first or something to that effect, which could be months or years at this rate.

Guin Saga is indeed awesome and hopefully the anime finds a good stopping point in spite of the author's untimely death, but Phantom's surprisingly not that lame. I'd say it's much better than Noir, which might not be saying much until you actually start to notice the differences. Some annoying stylistic elements remain, it's still BeeTrain, but the core story is stronger and a lot less boring. Great ending to that first arc.

The worst part about playing SRW in Japanese are the senshin (spirit) lists. Other than that, yeah, it's usually easy to get the hang of all the newer games. Except for that damned "dismiss" command in SRWK, which was annoying to memorize.

Sorry to hear that about Casey Rankin. The opening and ending themes to Orguss were catchy enough to help me get through the more annoying parts of the show and reach the good stuff.

I still can only shrug at that last opening to LOGH though...why, why did they ever do that? Oh well, three out of four ain't bad.

-NJ

Anonymous said...

Gilles: I thought it was just for manga and anime imported from Japan.

Gooberzilla said...

No, the fact that Handley's manga was imported allowed him to be brought up on Federal obscenity charges, since the material was transported over state lines and the federal government has broad powers over the regulation of "interstate commerce".

Under the letter of the law, just about anything that fails the three-pronged obscenity test could land you in jail, even materials that are legally released in the United States.

Minmei is supposedly 19 years old in that scene, but good luck trying to prove that to an unsympathetic jury.

Brack said...

On Tatsunoko rights: it looks like the rights for Battle of the Planets may have expired.

All the DVDs look like they've been out of print for a couple of years now (the UK box set now goes for up to £199.95).

Anonymous said...

Goober: Perhaps, but are they really going to go after someone who buys "The Aristocrats" through Amazon? I think they only went after Handley, because he was in one of those Bible Belt states, where anything foreign in the mail is automatically viewed as a terrorist threat. [At least I hope that's the case.] Christ, that guy who got jailed for selling the Urotsukidoji comic to an adult should have his case appealed on the same legal basis as a court finally overturning Texas ban on vibrators.

Anonymous said...

Dear Daryl,

You should know that Peter Payne and J-List were the most faithful advertisers in PULP (and thus, among its biggest supporters in the practical sense--keeping it financially afloat), for years purchasing the inside cover ad, up to the final issue. Peter was, as you allude, one of the founding members of Seishun Shitemasu, whom I have great affection and respect for.

--Carl

Daryl Surat said...

In light of this information, I now truly understand why I long thought Pulp was a porn magazine until several years after it had ceased to be. If the warning labels didn't do the trick, the J-List ad probably sealed the deal in my mind.

And Iowa's not part of the Bible Belt. It's part of the Grain Belt or whatever they call it. North Florida is definitely part of the Bible Belt, but the region of Florida we inhabit is considered exempt from this as it's the sole member of the "Men Who Wear White Belts" belt. Okay, that's actually a 15 year-old joke from Almost Live! which I can't personally vouch for. WHATEVER.

Also on the fans complaining bit: the number one complaint I'm hearing is not of releasing faster, but because there is no worldwide release.

Pfft. That's their own fault for not being Americans! But seriously, which requires the most effort among the most people: creating a fansub or installing a proxy? If you don't live in America and don't use proxy software, then you're just being a goof. Even if you are in America, lots of anime fans use proxies to access the "this site is only for members of Glorious Nippon" sections of the Internet.

I would gladly bet real money on the fact that the vast, vast, VAST majority of the thousands and thousands of people connected to English language torrents for any given new episode of FMA: Brotherhood are right here in the US. I would also gladly bet real money that the majority of the people creating said fansubs are also in the US.

during my manga club's jikoshoukai...

For the record, I only know the English language meaning of that term ("introduce yourself" or something) because back in the 90s, Rika Takahashi had a website about learning Japanese by way of sound clips and scenes from Magic Knights Rayearth and Yu Yu Hakusho.

Tim Eldred said...

Yeah, let's all hate on Yamato Rebirth. There's NO WAY it could possibly be any good. Those 5 seconds of character animation PROVE it. Tomonori Kogawa is a shitty character designer who should NEVER have been hired to work on Ideon or Dunbine. What a hack.

Gang, if after I see it I think the movie is no good I'll have no hesitation in saying so. I'm just not into condemning stuff beforehand, okay? In other words, I'm not yet dead inside.

Tim Eldred said...

Other topic: related to the Funimation security thing...

Years ago I got to work on the animated series based on the Sony Godzilla movie. The security on thing was insane. They didn't want ANYONE to see the monster design before the release, as if it was so mind-blowing the nation couldn't possibly handle it. We all had to sign extra non-disclosures before we looked at footage. We couldn't actually draw the correct design in our storyboards until after the release. At one point the film production company was an inch away from pulling the plug on the entire series because they thought someone leaked a drawing. It was that crazy and we all knew it was BS while it was going on.

But then I saw something that made me smile; two days before release some of us were walking through a mall on our lunch hour and passed a toystore. In plain view of everyone, a minimum wage employee with a "don't give a shit" face on was casually slicing open boxes that clearly said in big block letters DO NOT OPEN UNTIL [PREMIERE DATE OF MOVIE].

What was inside? HUGE Godzilla figures, the ones easiest to see from a block away. The wage-monkey was opening them up and putting them on display, single-handedly bringing down the entire multi-million dollar enterprise. I'm sure the colossal financial failure of the movie stemmed from that one incident.

This isn't exactly like the Funimation story, but is additional proof that no edifice, no matter how carefully constructed, is immune to sabotage by the neglected underclass. And so it should be. How else will the underclass stop being neglected?

Tim Eldred again said...

One more PS about Yamato Rebirth: despite Uncle Nish's claim, Toshio Masuda is the actual hands-on director. This is why I have hope.

Also, Yamato 2520 was an OAV series, didn't show in theatres.

AND...Rebirth was actually conceived at the same time as 2520 but got scuttled by the crashing failure of same. History would have been very different had it been made first.

And one more thing? (I can hear you giggling at me, but screw you) I agree that the ships should be in 2D, but I'm starting to believe the talent pool of animators capable of drawing convincing spaceships for the big screen has dried up. Hence the CG. It's not as fully-rendered as the Pachinko animation, no, but it wouldn't match the character art if it was. I've been working with CG for 10 years, it's a compromise at every level.

Carl said...

Dear Daryl,

Japan has many straight-up porn manga magazines, but PULP's titles were, almost without exception* from Shogakukan's BIG COMIC SPIRITS magazine, a very mainstream seinen magazine whose circulation in Japan at the time of PULP's launch was about 1.1 million weekly (as of 2009, this is down to 355,000).

--Carl

*Perhaps the most prominent exception was, ironically, a shojo title: Banana Fish, which ran in the magazine today known as BETSUCOMI, home of Hot Gimmick and Basara.

Milo said...

"I don't have much to add. I think the whole Handley case is fucked up just because we're all moral panic alarmists when is comes to the safety of children."

I don't agree that the problem is that cops and lawmakers are moral panic alarmists, the problem is that they are unproductively concerned about things which don't really matter, and tragically unconcerned with the things which do (domestic abuse, neglect, education, etc). This case isn't shocking, but an unfortunate reminder of all that.

But this is a podcast about Japanese moving pictures, so why am I getting into all that?

Anonymous said...

Daryl: I thought Pulp was a fanzine myself. Also, Animerica used to have porn anime ads in the back of the magazine, too.

Tim: As long as it's not as awful as Indy 4, the SW prequels, or Sky Crawlers[Yeah, I went there.], I'm willing to give it a chance. Anyway, I didn't like the new Godzilla, either, but I was hoping Transformers would fail harder. Oh, well, I'm still crossing my fingers on Revenge of the Fallen...

Anonymous said...

This fandom has gone from a society for the promotion of japanese cartoons to trying to defend simulated rape and virtual child porn. Cries of moe = hooray, I'm a low status male who feels empowered by masturbating to disgusting things.

Steve Harrison said...

yknow, call me crazy, but if you're gonna use the Anonymous option to post (and you don't HAVE to, really! it's quite simple to use Name/URL), I think it's at least courtesy to do as Carl does and sign the post. Saves so much trouble when one Anon has value and the other is an asshat.

But as RAMBO'S LAW hasn't been used yet, I guess it's just the way things are.

Tim, I don't think a 1994 release of Yamato Rebirth, before Yamato 2520 would have changed things. I fear Nishizaki was too deep in wasting his money and, maybe, listening to the wrong people.

I think, somehow, he forgot that it wasn't just him that made Yamato huge, it was that entire miracle staff. Just like Gene Roddenberry 'forgot' the work of Gene Coon, D.C. Fontana, et al. in the creation and running of Star Trek.

(it's quite interesting how often Yamato fan history and ST fan history run paralle)

Tim Eldred said...

Can't agree 100% with that, Stever. Based on what little footage was released on the "Quickening" video, the Rebirth staff had some experienced star power in it -- far more than anything exhibited in 2520, which could only boast Syd Mead and a bunch of newbies.

I stand by my claim. Not that it means anything in this time/space dimension.

Anyone who wants to find out more, head over to starblazers.com and look for "new movie reports" in the "legacy" section. For that matter, the lead story this month is where I describe my first encounter with the new trailer.

PS: If'n I ran the internet, "anonymous" wouldn't even be an option.

Anonymous said...

Man, the worst thing about those digital converter boxes is I have to reshuffle the wires so I can play my old Kiseki tape of Macross: DYRL and UV tape of The Cockpit. But at least I'm glad that works, since UPN, CW, or whatever the fuck it's called still looks like shit. The pictures are clearer, but I'm still stuck with the crap-tastic reception of my local tv station, which means it my tv looks like a scrambled porn broadcast. Talk about a bait-and-switch. Hopefully, when Japan adapts that format two years from now, they'll come up with better technology for the boxes like they do with their other stuff. And hopefully, DTVs will actually be reasonably priced.

-D.Z.

Anonymous said...

>But seriously, which requires the most effort among the most people: creating a fansub or installing a proxy?

Perhaps that is more targeted towards the fansubbers themselves, however I would argue that for those consuming the content, downloading over BT, IRC or better yet a DDL service is a hundred times easier than finding and setting up a proxy service.

Though, assuming you do go with the proxy route, you are still technically violating the "Term of Service" in some manner anyway. So whats the point of using a proxy anyway? You're still breaking some law..

>I would gladly bet ... that the vast, vast, VAST majority ... of people connected to English language torrents for any given new episode of FMA: Brotherhood are right here in the US

While pretty likely, its a moot point. Those people obviously couldn't care less about Funimation's streaming efforts anyway.

Anyway--I only wanted to bring up this point to inform you of it, not argue for or against it. Since you asked something along the lines: Aren't they giving everything that we want? For some people the answer is still 'no'.

VZ said...

True. Some people, namely those on 4chan are like "we want the R1 anime DVD industry to die.".

IMO this thing about streaming shows isn't the best bet. I still use fansubs to watch the shows as they come out and then buy the legitimate R1 release to show my support.

I hate it when you ask someone "What was the last anime you bought" and they say "My internet bill or hard drive."

I don't know a lot about Yamato but it seems like the Nish and other people like him should just realize that certain things are only indicative of the time of their creation and can't expect their new versions of their properties to be a hit when the trends have changed.

As a sort anomaly between an oldschool and modern anime fan, I've learned to accept that trends and styles change. There's nothing wrong with liking the older stuff, but people need to stop asking for more of the old stuff when there not even part of the modern ascetics.

Tim Eldred said...

I agree with your point, but there's always a catch; updating an "old school" show to match modern trends alienates viewers as often as not. One of the common complaints I'm reading about the new footage is "it doesn't look like the original." Well, of course it doesn't, and it CAN'T. The production process is totally different now. So the trick is to maintain the spirit of the original and combine it with visuals that can attract a modern audience.

One example is the recent Votoms spinoff, Pailsen Files. Character designs were updated slightly but all the mecha went to CG which gave it a different flavor than previous installments. The mistake they made was letting the CG take over and dictate how the mecha should behave. In doing so, they lost some of the original spirit. Votoms mecha was always meant to be solid and a bit clunky; in Pailsen Files they move like dancers. They also threw out the original sound effects library, which made it feel like a totally different show.

I don't see this happening with Yamato, since the mechanics of spaceship motion are basically the same in 2D or 3D. They'll just move more smoothly in 3D. That leaves story and characters. The character design is already throwing people EVEN THOUGH the designer is about as old school as they get--but as I said before we've only seen about 5 seconds of chara animation which is too little to judge an entire movie.

That leaves the story. It's entirely possible to tell a modern story using old school elements. As long as they don't pretend they're still talking to a 70s audience that hasn't seen LOGH, Galactica, or other space shows, they've got a fighting chance.

We'll find out in December.

Anonymous said...

vz: "I don't know a lot about Yamato but it seems like the Nish and other people like him should just realize that certain things are only indicative of the time of their creation and can't expect their new versions of their properties to be a hit when the trends have changed."

That's what they said about Star Trek, though.

Anonymous said...

Holy shit, I just saw the Neo-Yamato promo, and I haven't been this wowed by a 2-d/3-d convergence since Macross Plus and the original Ghost in the Shell movie! Too bad it's probably going to bomb in Japan, since none of the pilots look like whiny emo pussies, nor appear to have any underage "little sisters" running on the deck of the ship. But at least this will be one anime Whedon won't be able to rip off without getting called on it, which is all that matters; or does he still have a career after Absolute Dollhouse?

Anyway, I just hope the Starblazers/Yamato rights aren't as much a pain in the ass that we won't get the movie over here like we've been unable to do with every Macross starting with 7. Oh, and I hope Nintendo pays the production team to give us the Star Fox or Metroid anime we deserve. Though considering the current market, those animators will probably just be outsourced for the FX for the inevitable live-action Bucky O' Hare film, *sigh*.Sonova...There's already a listing for one on IMDB!

VZ said...

"That's what they said about Star Trek, though."

And Star Trek hasn't been interesting to me since the TNG and the movies.

The only property I can think of that's reinvented itself and generally still work is Transformers.

"nor appear to have any underage "little sisters" running on the deck of the ship."

That would make the thing better IMO.

Also K-On is ending and I am sad. ;_;

Anonymous said...

VZ: I hear the new Trek movie's good, but there are a lot more Abrams fanboys than Whedon fanboys, so it could all be bullshit.

Anyway, I forgot to add that the 2004 Appleseed was among the last 2-D/CG anime which impressed me. The sequel was more like the kind of official fan-fiction they used to censor in the U.S. release of the GITS manga, though. http://www.cityonfire.com/japanese/appleseedexmachina.html

Milo said...

I know I'm probably being redundant; most people that would care about this news and happen to read AWO comments are already plugged in to the goings on of anime fandom, but here I go anyway: the first bunko of Golgo 13 had been scanlated, with plans to release more in the future! Over 300 pages of the beginning of Golgo 13, available right here:

http://offtopia.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=59

Will be interesting to read the manga chronologically from its beginnings in 1969.

Anonymous said...

Man, I can't believe Toupee is screening the Fist movie at AX, and in the early evening, and not after midnight to boot. Maybe they're hoping some exec will do a better LA version of it?

Anonymous said...

I'm glad that in Handley's case and any other involving depictions of sexualized minors in entertainment can be subject to obscenity charges at the very least. Without a shadow of a doubt Dwight Whoreley would have used his authority as an adult to molest a child if he had been given the chance. And Neil Gaiman is a notable author but he's ridiculously naive and undeserving of the litigious power he has.


Thanks to myopic anime fans I can't enjoy japanese animation like I did when I was a teenager. The fandom's become a regrettable collection of scary burgeoning pederasts and their over-enthusiastic apologists clamoring around inside their internet echobox. You oppose informed decisions made by top politicians and the United Nations to protect the most vulnerable members of our society.

Seriously fuck you.

ash said...

I'm glad that in Handley's case and any other involving depictions of sexualized minors in entertainment can be subject to obscenity charges at the very least. Without a shadow of a doubt Dwight Whoreley would have used his authority as an adult to molest a child if he had been given the chance. And Neil Gaiman is a notable author but he's ridiculously naive and undeserving of the litigious power he has.


Thanks to myopic anime fans I can't enjoy japanese animation like I did when I was a teenager. The fandom's become a regrettable collection of scary burgeoning pederasts and their over-enthusiastic apologists clamoring around in their internet echobox. You oppose informed decisions made by top politicians and the United Nations to protect the most vulnerable members of our society.

Seriously, fuck you losers and your diatribes.

Steve Harrison said...

So, one of the Anon's is Ash? Or Ash just liked what Anon said so much he did the copypasta and added more cursing?

So, what, Ninja Scroll stop getting you hard or something? Ain't no anime viagra, sorry.

and I for one rather don't approve of the United Nations making law for the US of A thank you very much. We'll deal with anything that needs dealing with just fine on our own.

Tim Eldred said...

So you don't see a difference between a pedo spooging over live-action child porn vs. drawings of same? Seriously?

As a parent myself, I'm disgusted by the thought of adults getting hot for anyone under 18, but getting hot for a drawing of someone under 18 doesn't make my list of things worth fighting over.

It's pathetic and worthy of ridicule, but it isn't criminal behavior. And if you choose to see it as a gateway drug, well, you live in a dark, scary world.

Milo said...

I think the one point to take away from Ash/anon's posting (which I actually agree with, once you take out the bitterness and combativeness of his post) is that the zealous and seemingly uniform defense of lolita pornography and rape games in the anime community is.... unsettling and creepy to say the least, and irresponsible at the very worst.

As Mr. Harrison says, these actions are "pathetic and worthy of ridicule", but that doesn't seem to come up in ANY of the commentary I've seen. Perhaps there might be some discussion of these things among anime fans, where they are condemned as unhealthy, but so far, every blog and forum I've seen is nothing but sympathetic to the people who engage in this behavior.

That universal endorsement, quite frankly, makes me wonder what company I've unwittingly kept when I decided to start checking out anime and manga.

Tim Eldred said...

Just remember that it's not the fault of anime and/or manga what sort of people it attracts. We don't blame any other medium (movies, novels, TV shows, etc.) for its following, just the individuals who decide what to do within that medium.

In any audience for anything there's always going to be a certain percentage of lunacy that gets expressed in icky ways. It's one of the prices we pay for living in a free society (without affordable mental healthcare).

Andrew said...

And that's coming from a man whose greatest love is a show where naked girls in tubes is just part of the mythos :3

Milo said...

Very fair point, Tim. And I'd readily agree with you that this is an "icky minority" situation, IF there was a shred of disapproval expressed in ANY of the fan communities I frequent.

So far, the comments section of this podcast is the only place I've seen it appear, and only after ash/anon got hot under the collar and lashed out immaturely.

Tim Eldred said...

"naked girls in tubes"? Fyana was a WOMAN, dammit.

About the lack of disapproval, well, this IS a very permissive fandom. We sorta have to be, since we're embracing pop culture from a very different country. On the upside, that makes your average anime fan more open-minded. On the downside, well, you've seen it already. We're permissive to a fault.

Disapproval is what we're all trying to stay away from.

Carl said...

Ash, I attend several anime and manga conventions a year, and out there--that is, out there among actual people interacting in reality--I see that fandom is mostly made up of teenagers hanging out together. I don't think they are likely to allow any creep to put some moves on them, just because they're fans, or it's a con. They are there for each other, which is how it should be. And it's worth bearing in mind that they grew up with the internet and all its extremes, yet they're not disgusted with anime and manga fandom, because they see in reality it's different. In the big picture, it gets more social and normal each and every year.

I was eleven when I became an otaku, and--as I'm always saying, because for me it was true--I got far creepier vibes from the scene back then (1982) than I do today. I can't enjoy anime today like I did when I was a teenager, either--but that's because I'm not a teenager, and haven't been for a long time. From what I can see of today's teenage anime fans, though, it looks like they're all right, and have got themselves together.

Duc said...

I have listened trough some older episodes in the archives and about the death of a certain Japanese singer. The only one, gone by now, who could sing in English very well. Dear AWO-Trio, what was his name again? ;°)

Dec said...

Well thing about super robot wars, is that if it got released in the US, it would most likely do so exactly once. The massive amount of money that would be spent licensing would mean that the game would have to make a pretty big return in order for it to be profitable. Unfortunately, mech games typically don't sell as well here as they do in japan. While I still wish with all my heart that I can shoot poorly conceived sentai monsters with a "GETTA BEEAM!", I don't think that a U.S. release is likely.
Also, I wonder if there is a list somewhere on the internet of all the loopholes that one would have to go through in order to get a SRW game released.

wah said...

>>That universal endorsement, quite frankly, makes me wonder what company I've unwittingly kept when I decided to start checking out anime and manga.

It's all just fiction, dude. No one's getting hurt when a guy looks at a dirty comic book. Everyone looks at porn, just some people have different tastes. Doesn't mean they're going to go out and kill people, then rape their guts in real life.

In my manga club here in Japan, there's a lot of people who are into loli stuff, but they are some of the chillest, most normal people ever.

I think if you're going to be an anime/manga/game fan, you need to let go of any right-leaning opinions you have, because you'll just a headache if every single person who likes 2D kids freaks you out.

Anonymous said...

ash: "I'm glad that in Handley's case and any other involving depictions of sexualized minors in entertainment can be subject to obscenity charges at the very least."

So should people be arrested for watching Hard Candy and Hound Dog, too?

"Without a shadow of a doubt Dwight Whoreley would have used his authority as an adult to molest a child if he had been given the chance."

Perhaps, but since he was already a sex offender, the public would have been on alert. My issue is with someone who looks at a drawing being lumped in with sex offenders, especially since they can expand the law to define any fictional depiction of "minors" engaging in sexual acts or situations as illegal, even if it's only implied. I mean, where does it end? People being arrested for reading Ranma 1/2, because the teen girls show their tits once in a while? Or how about girls who talk about sex in Air Gear? AWO should really link Toren's comments on Nymphet, too. http://mrcaxton.livejournal.com/26421.html

"You oppose informed decisions made by top politicians and the United Nations to protect the most vulnerable members of our society."

Politicians who started a war which threatened more children's lives than a comic are hardly what I'd call "informed". And the U.N. is looking the other way on actual rapes in Darfur-the same way it did in Bosnia.

Milo: I always find it bullshit that those games get trashed, but whenever some underage floozy from the Disney Channel dresses like a whore, it's "ok", because she's really meant to cater to "tween" audiences, which basically means encouraging little girls to look and act like the characters from a certain South Park episode. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupid_Spoiled_Whore_Video_Playset
'Cus let's face it. Their agents know exactly what they're doing by "catching" them half naked in preparation for when they become 18. (*cough* Lindsay and Miley *cough*) So if selling actual underage celebrity skin to horny guys is somehow "normal"[ http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/192840 ], why are h-games any different?

Steve Harrison said...

Wah, don't get sucked into the 'Left Vs. Right' game on this. Recall it was Tipper Gore who pushed the labeling of music and videogames to 'protect the children'.

Milo said...

wah, you said:

"In my manga club here in Japan, there's a lot of people who are into loli stuff, but they are some of the chillest, most normal people ever."

Well, we're back at where we started. I made a comment earlier about how creepy it was that an acceptance of loli pornagraphy ran throughout anime fandom, when many of the sane people in this thread agree that is gross and deserving of ridicule. Quite honestly, I don't know you or your standards, so your emphasis that people who get off on 2d kids are "chill" and "normal" doesn't sway me one way or the other.

I know perfectly well that it's not outright harming anyone, but that's not the point. The idea that "anything goes", and "who are you to judge" is always something that offends my rational sensibilities. Where do you draw the line? As long as it's not real, it should be defended? True, it's not hurting other people, but the same is true of self-harm and depression. While I agree that jailtime and fines are NOT the answer, might it be true that many of the people who enjoy lolita pornography are in need of psychological counseling? These sort of discussions NEVER occur, it just immediately becomes a freedom issue. And it's just my personal judgment that freedom without understanding or empathy isn't freedom at all.

I am talking in circles, and I don't feel I'm particularly adding anything to this conversation, so I understand if people are getting tired of my semi off-topic ramblings.

Anonymous said...

I don't get why certain anime fans need help, but it's "ok" for a guy like Von Brunn to have easy access to guns.

Milo said...

Perfect analogy, Anonmyous. I find the relentless "they wanna take our guns!" outcry just as annoying and irresponsible as "they wanna take our lolita pornography!" outcry.

Both narrow-mindedly focus on the freedom issue, and ignore the wider issues like moral responsibility and general psychological health.

Andrew said...

"Fyana was a WOMAN, dammit."

But she's only one years old. Also Chirico is only 18 and I don't seem him as a cougar hunter.

But we all know Votoms is really about Chirico the young blue-haired boy getting molested by old men.

http://toyboxdx.com/phorum/read.php?5,195252

this comic proves it.

ogiuemaniax said...

The problem at hand with trying to pass regulations on topics such as obscene imagery in comics and manga is this: Just because something disgusts you to the very core of your being does not mean that you should ban it or remove it from the world.

Whether it's lolicon, furry, or even something that is NOT pornography, it is very, very dangerous to restrict creativity and ideas, even if those ideas might be bad or unsavory ones. That is not to say they should be entirely unregulated, but that it should not be done out of irrational fear or impatient disgust. It should be looked at with a sound mind and a good understanding of the situation at hand.

The problem with people any sort of absolute moral high ground in such a situation is that they tend to believe that their own beliefs are infallible or that they will absolutely never be subject to the consequences of passing these laws. But that is what has people worried, that's what has anime and manga fans worried. Where do YOU draw the line? How do you even know you're the one who's behind that line? What happens if a law is passed and something which you once thought was morally allowable turns out not to be, and most importantly, it was something that existed purely in your mind or on a piece of paper you own?

Well beyond pornography, manga presents a lot of ideas that are very different from what we have in America. There is a lot of experimentation, a lot that stems from simply coming from a different culture with an even more different comics culture. Some of it may be considered morally reprehensible even in Japan, but the question I have to ask is this: Do you want fiction to be a reflection of what is morally right at expense of being able to portray what is morally wrong? Do you want to read fiction where characters never defy the rules or laws of society?

And while you might say that's different, that still comes from the perspective that you would not be affected by such laws, which is perhaps the most dangerous form of thinking of all.

Milo said...

I entirely agree with you, ogiuemaniax. Banishment is NOT the answer. My concern and curiosity lie in the fact that after anime fans admit that banishment is a careless response, the issue is dropped, as if the only response to lolicon pornography is the chorus line from "Diff'rent Strokes."

Make no mistake, we do agree that banishment/jailtime isn't any sort of appropriate response to simulated or depicted actions in drawn fiction, no matter how extreme.

I also have to confess I don't feel any panic or worry about the future of manga in America. I guess I'm simply not the "sky is falling" kind of worrier, considering that REAL child pornography, that utter reprehensible filth, has regularly popped up on websites like 4chan. No matter how illegal it gets, the people jonesing for the content will have it. The classic "slippery slope" heuristic doesn't bother me in this case either, since there isn't any manga I've encountered that is any more offensive than independant and international films I've seen, which as far as I know, aren't under any legal duress.

(I won't be offended if all of my posts are deleted. I have gotten a lot out of this discussion, though, and appreciate all the thought out responses.)

Tim Eldred said...

I think this topic is now spinning into a wider orbit than necessary, so I'll attempt to simplify...

It seems to me the basis of Milo's grievance here is the lack of any strong message to counter the defense of Loliporn, not a desire to see it banned or restricted.

Just as certain buzzwords are deployed to stop deeper thinking in its tracks ("socialist" is one we're hearing ad nauseum these days) "freedom" can be used the same way. "They hate our freedom" was one example intended to stop deeper thinking.

Here's how it's used in this case:

statement: Loliporn is disgusting crap consumed by pathetic people

comeback: Who are you to judge or censor? You can't take away our freedom

followup statement: _________

I think Milo is unhappy that no one has yet filled in the blank in any meaningful way. My question is, who cares enough about this issue to lead the charge? Honestly speaking, I don't. For that matter, I'm not even sure where the core debate is going on.

Maybe one of you is in a better position to pursue it.

Jokes aside, Andrew, Fyana IS actually a full-grown woman. Some recently-discovered background has it that she was chosen for the PS experiment and had her mind wiped clean as she was 'retooled'. Whoever she was before got erased from history. Spooky, huh?

Milo said...

Here's my proposed followup statement:

People who masturbate to drawn child pornography are in need of some sort of assistance. Now, what sort of assistance that should be, whether it should be forced upon them or optional, isn't particularly clear, but since anyone worth the air that they breathe already acknowledges that ACTUAL child molestation is wrong, having a fetish for its stylization is a curious and troublesome thing.

I would never respond to the knowledge that huge swaths of people ejaculate to the depiction of the robbing of a child's innocence by shrugging my shoulders, or by getting worked up about what it means for my manga collection.

Daryl Surat said...

There will be actual notes for this episode when Gerald edits them in, since as is the case for every news segment I do not have the notes.

For the record, I only delete posts that I determine to be spamming or grievously off-topic. If your post is a thinly-veiled cover for "check out my website" or is talking about an issue we didn't really focus on at the expense of the subject at hand, it's getting the axe.

Personally, I think that there exists a strong current of fundamental dishonesty among the moe/fujoshi horde regarding their true motives. Some are genuine in what they say, but I think there exists a substantial contingent of people that opt to hide behind the umbrella of "cartoons are ART, and art is free speech, and the second you start trying to limit free speech just cause you don't like what it's saying then THEY'RE COMING FOR YOU NEXT!" who REALLY just want to indulge their kinks. Left unchecked, the result of this is...well, read up on Mark Merlino sometime.

This umbrella is a necessary and proper one to have and maintain, for it's what stops Kekko Kamen from shoving her junk in your face. But at least own up to your agenda.

Steve Harrison said...

I'm with Daryl on the 'silent agenda' issue, there IS that whole thing of people who hide behind 'useful idiots' to promote an agenda, because the logic follows, the 'slippery slope' that seems to be the whipping boy of those that claim to be open minded but work to stifle (x) or (y)

(you think Socialist is being abused, Tim? try being openly Conservative.)

But there IS a slippery slope, there has always been.In the past it's been moderated by faith and logic and reason and common sense. "Well of COURSE nobody is going to want to marry a HORSE, we're not going to ban that in law, good lord!" and yet now, now, there are people who want to do exactly that!

What I have seen in all my years is an interesting truth. People who scream loudest about not judging people, especially THEM for what they want, at their core, in their deepest thoughs, KNOW what they do, what they want is wrong on some fundamental level and they DO fear judgment. Maybe not here, but on a higher realm. Even if they profess to not believe in God or a god.

They KNOW that spanking it to pictures of 8 year old girls is wrong.

Porn is like art. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

manga with 8 year old girls with 100 tits growing dicks spewing all over is....not art, that's for sure.

anyway, I do think we can discuss this without any Left vs. Right nonsense.

Carl said...

Daryl, I think part of the problem is that, in the news story this episode details, one either had a choice of supporting the view that "this material is obscene, and therefore should be subject to prosecution and a lengthy prison term" (because that is what the law provides) or supporting the view that "this material is not obscene, and therefore not subject to prosecution and a lengthy prison term" (because that is what the law also provides).

The law in this case did not provide for any middle position, such as "I personally would regard this material as obscene, but don't believe someone should be prosecuted and sent to prison for it." That is, you *could* take that position, or some other position in-between, but it would mean nothing practically in this case, which is the matter at hand; in a sense, therefore, such a position is off-topic.

It may seem a ridiculous position to be in, but perhaps not less so than the constitutional protection smugly afforded the speech of David Duke and Fred Phelps, on the grounds that this kind of speech is "political" and "religious," and therefore in a class that is vital to public debate. So a hate-filled crowd screaming on a street corner need never have to justify themselves before a jury of their peers, merely for the content of their speech. But the person reading comics at home--well, now.

VZ said...

Sorry Daryl about the spamming but please don't delete my posts.

I wanted also say, it's not so much the banishment of lolicon manga that's the issue for me, it's that if you ban it, what would stop it from the next more severe getting banned. Is panty shots on a character that's less than 18 going to get banned? What about breasts just because they're too small or too big or that there just there in general? I DON'T want western world to dictate what Japan does with their media.

A lot of people that look at stuff like lolicon, or anything that borders on the offensive do so not much because it gets them off but that they know that it bothers people. It's a way to sort of be "bad" but without actually doing anything that harms anyone. Wikipedia's article on lolicon states that "lolicon for otaku is the most convenient form or rebellion."

BTW I ordered the FOTNS movie, Battle Royal High School, the Mazinkaiser with the other Go Nagai thing set, Cybernetics Guardian along wit all of Popotan. What does that say about my polar opposite tastes?

Gooberzilla said...

I call bullshit on lolicon being a form of rebellion. Rebellion implies some sort of protest. What specifically is pornographic drawings of presexual human beings supposed to protest?

This is not to say that the fictious depiction of the sexual abuse of children couldn't be used as a form of protest. It conceivably could. Take a look at the Italian film Salo: 120 Days of Sodom if you don't believe me. But I'm willing to venture that somewhere close to 99% of lolicon erotic art is intended as stroke material for pedophiles.

And if you're specifically seeking out this kind of material just to piss people off, and not because it fulfills some sort of sexual fetish, may I humbly suggest you find a more constructive hobby, one that couldn't result in federal obscenity prosecutions?

Milo, I agree that it's disenheartening to see anime fandom become a platform for vocal people with a disturbing fetish. But short of censorship or legislation, what exactly do you propose we should do about it? It's one thing to express our collective displeasure and suggest that pedophiles seek some form of counseling, but at the end of the day what else can we do?

Laika said...

"Porn is like art. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

manga with 8 year old girls with 100 tits growing dicks spewing all over is....not art, that's for sure. "

Man, I don't know, that seems like such arbitrary reasoning for what people can classify as porn or art. It's way too exclusive of any overlap. Just because it's got graphic imagery doesn't really seem to make it porn to me.

I mean I (personally :P) wouldn't really be reading something like that specifically to get off, so to me, it probably wouldn't be porn. And depending on the context, say, if the character was set in some space where the graphic imagery of it's design were to to be juxtaposed with something to make a statement, why couldn't it be considered art? On the same line, a lot of people consider most comics that get lumped into the guro category porn too, but I think a lot of it shouldn't really be considered strictly such. You'd be hard pressed to say that it isn't offensive or obscene but to say that some of the works don't have any artistic merit seems as out there as this fictional character design you've described is.

I mean, taking a look at things that resemble mainstream porn closer, I know his name is taboo here, but there are plenty of Takashi Murakami's works that are pretty much porn. However, because of the context (or rebranding) or whatever you'd like to attribute it to (marketing genius) have pretty much been accepted by many as, "Art."

There is so much that depends on context like community (as mentioned in the cast) that it really problematic to judge it with any objectiveness, and even more so when you're trying to apply it to some sort of greater social mechanism like law.

exedore said...

The issue with obscenity is that what qualifies as obscene is by no means a fixed term and entirely up to the people setting the laws and making judgments at the time. One only need look at the number of films previously banned by the British Board of Film Censors and subsequently passed five, ten, or twenty years down the line to understand that ideas change (though I've still officially got obscene material as I brought over my uncut John Waters DVDs.)

Of course, the question is what do you do with your obscene material? I sure as hell don't jack off to the scene excised from the UK release of Pink Flamingos (that's the scene where two characters kill a chicken while fucking) but I do laugh at it. A girl with a hundred dicks sprouting from her tits? Not wank material in my book, and I don't see it. But, she's not real, so whatever floats your boat.

But then, despite politically being in line with the Conservatives these days (that's the British political party, the ones who are against mandatory biometric ID cards and support LBGT rights as opposed to whatever people in the US have hijacked the term), I do have some bits of dirty hippy still floating around...

The Moogle Master said...

Hey! This episode was released on my birthday!

I remember pulp, don't think i ever read an issue, but i remember in it. Most of it was stuff geared to older men, but then why was Banana Fish in there? I thought Banana Fish was Shojo? Could be wrong though.

Anonymous said...

Another issue to consider is that the US courts judged the material according to US bias. The prosecutor and judge, if not the lawmakers themselves, likely saw the material as "comic books" which to their minds are something that children read. Thus their whole approach to the case was biased. They were approaching the case with the mindset of judging the availablilty of the material according to what should be deemed suitable for children.

Carl said...

Takashi Murakami's statue "My Lonesome Cowboy." How far is it in content, exactly, from manga called "obscene"? On the contrary, however, there was no prosecution of the artist, or the galleries that displayed it, or, presumably, of the person who bought it, for $13.5 million dollars.

http://shapeandcolour.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/murakamis-my-lonesome-cowboy-15-million/

The $15 million? That was counting the auction house's fee. By the way, this auction didn't occur in that depraved land known as Japan. It happened in the United States, which, the last time I checked, is under federal jurisdiction. The person who ordered some manga to read at home, however--

If we're having trouble with seeing art in either of these two cases, can we perhaps at least put aside our artistic debates and psychological theories...and see something more simple--a case of vile injustice? Vile, because it is happening in reality. I'm one of those strange people whose outrage is provoked more by reality than fantasy. There must be something wrong with me.

Gooberzilla, that was my point about the reality of anime fandom. Go to a convention and see the tens of thousands of real anime fans (I mean real in the sense of "how they act in real life"), and you're not going to see "anime fandom become a platform for vocal people with a disturbing fetish," unless glomping is a fetish. You're not going to see panels and programming schedules dominated by disturbing fetishes; they're going to be about the new FMA series and how to build prop swords for costumes.

And, as I said, the kind of people (i.e., teenagers) who populate cons now are precisely the ones who grew up with the internet, where one can indulge in nothing but disturbing things, if one wishes. But that isn't the kind of fandom they chose to build in reality--a phrase I seem to keep repeating here, in reality, in reality. As opposed to on the internet, or in manga.

Milo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Milo said...

"Milo, I agree that it's disheartening to see anime fandom become a platform for vocal people with a disturbing fetish. But short of censorship or legislation, what exactly do you propose we should do about it?"

I think you've hit on the dilemma that caused me to spend so much time in this thread. At the end of the day, there isn't really a thing we can do about it.

And yet, the fact that I've been running into nothing but short-sighted and naive rambling on the sanctity of lolicon pornography everywhere (else) that I visit for anime news leaves me intensely dissatisfied. Was I naively expecting more from the collective community? Probably so.

Maybe if I simply reread a few of the posts in this thread a few times, I'll feel less like the one-eyed man and more like a member of a rational, but relatively quiet, contingency.

(And the fact that the majority of anime con attendees dress up as G-rated Naruto characters doesn't make me feel any better. It would almost be irrelevant, if it wasn't for the ironic fact that I've seen and heard about the varying levels of disturbing Naruto doujinshi that exists...)

Steve Harrison said...

But we also have to look at what the media decides to focus on. I'm gonna make Daryl heave a mighty sigh with what's coming up.

You CANNOT ignore the playbooks, the embedded action line that is the collective opinion of the media. They're still stuck in 'Violent Porn Toons from Japan' as the action line. So you get a crew shooting b-roll at a con, what's gonna get used? Since there's nothing as 'standardized' as Klingons or Stormtroopers, they'll use the pics of a. attractive girls in goth/loli or maid gear, b. the MGS cosplayers with the guns and camo, and c. anybody posing with a sword.

Violent Porn Toons.

It's the Biff! Bam! Pow! Comics aren't for kids anymore! thinking every time some graphic novel breaks out a little.

And thus, this guy fits the template. Doesn't MATTER that the average con contains 99% innocent teens (altho of course, fully able to be asshats in their own special ways), that's not gonna be SHOWN.

Just remember that. It's still all violent porn toons to the mass media. Just like 1988.

Gooberzilla said...

Absolutely, Carl, I completely agree with you. No person should be imprisoned for owning a work of fiction. I don't care how vile or repugnant it may be to my sensibilities or the tastes of the community. Offended sensibilities are not a weighty enough justification to sieze the offender's property, remove their freedom, lock them away in a cell, and brand them with a criminal record for the rest of their life.

VZ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
wah said...

Milo, I think your assessment of "people who look at 2-Dimensional lolita pornography need therapy" is misguided because a lot of us have no interest in real children at all. I sure don't. I do, however, like cute, 2D characters, and as such I do buy erotic doujinshi and magazines featuring such characters. Most of us who indulge in such things also really strongly feel that real child pornography is gross and wrong.

Just because I find white women to be unattractive doesn't mean I think every dude who gets off to erotic photos of white women needs therapy.

Anonymous said...

Carl: What bugs me is that, according to the "law", Handley's legally able to buy the manga online, but if it gets delivered to his house, then he's doing something illegal. So the feds should either shut down the vendor or let him buy whatever the fuck he wants, since it's basically just entrapment, otherwise. And they're just really looking for people to make examples of, like when they busted Tommy Chong. It has nothing to do with actually pursuing people who are real threats.

Anyway, since someone's looking for an argument to "defend" lolicon, here it is: Why is someone considered "normal" for looking at sites like Stileproject.com and rotten.com [Hell, I knew a Christian chick who bragged about checking out the latter link.] where they got stuff like scat, golden showers, and other sick shit[I think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSDsu98SoTg about sums it up.]; but if they go look at a drawing, then they're suddenly degenerates? Sounds like a double standard to me...

Goober: My problem is that an actual criminal gets a shorter sentence than said person.

Milo said...

wah said:

"Milo, I think your assessment of "people who look at 2-Dimensional lolita pornography need therapy" is misguided because a lot of us have no interest in real children at all. I sure don't. I do, however, like cute, 2D characters, and as such I do buy erotic doujinshi and magazines featuring such characters. Most of us who indulge in such things also really strongly feel that real child pornography is gross and wrong."

We probably agree more than you think, wah. That wasn't my final reasoned conclusion on the matter, since I'm nowhere near qualified to make such a conclusion. I was just throwing it out there as a possibility, or as a possibility of the sort of thing that can be discussed, as opposed to the simplistic "it's either illegal or perfectly okay" paradigm.

Take, for example, the foot fetish. I don't understand it firsthand, but a lot of general research and investigation has been done on it, and it has pretty much been accepted by mainstream society, at least enough that it can be discussed on daytime TV by Quentin Tarantino without controversy.

Lolicon pornography is definitely a fetish, and more so than other fetishes, it is disturbing, because of the OBVIOUS fact that it involves drawings of children. It is also more controversial because we know for a fact that pedophiles have enjoyed it, and there's an OBVIOUS similarity in the subject matter of the fetish and the crime. This is why I think it needs to be discussed and looked into more. Again, I'm not saying it should be banned or people should be imprisoned. Maybe people SHOULD just be left alone with it. It's hard to say because there is so little investigation on the subject.

Again, to disregard lolicon as no different than having a aesthetic preference for white women is either irresponsible or moronic.

Martyn said...

'What specifically is pornographic drawings of presexual human beings supposed to protest?'

I'm just guessing, but I'd assume societal constructs of adulthood and adult sexuality?

Gooberzilla said...

"I'm just guessing, but I'd assume societal constructs of adulthood and adult sexuality?"

I'd have to see some evidence that such was the intended purpose of the artwork in question in order to believe that.

arromdee said...

I think that there's a problem with the idea that the Funimation incident shows that fans won't be satisfied even if given what they claim to want.

A leak, as a problem, is inherently different from a fansub. Fansubs are a problem when downloaded by large numbers of people; it's really the prevalence of fansubs that's a problem. Having one person download a fansub would be no problem at all. On the other hand, the main problem with a leak is that it happens at all--it's true that the leak then gets put on Bittorrent, but ultimately a leak is a problem caused by one person.

So it's quite possible that fans (meaning 99% of all fans) would be satisfied by getting what they asked for, and that it was still leaked anyway by one of the remaining 1%.

Anonymous said...

Calling people pedophiles for enjoying moe is like calling Daryl a murderer and a rapist for enjoying gekiga and Kawajiri.

Neither makes much sense to me. People's fantasy lives are usually quite different from how they lead their real life.

But people tend not to think quite straight when the issue is THE CHIIIIILDREN OH GOD THE CHIIIIIIIILDREN.

-Kamon

Daryl Surat said...

Calling people pedophiles for enjoying moe is like calling Daryl a murderer and a rapist for enjoying gekiga and Kawajiri . . . People's fantasy lives are usually quite different from how they lead their real life.

Only because there's no way I could do it without getting caught. Because otherwise, you have my assurance that I would be murdering the FUCK out of people. And dogs. Not stray dogs, mind you. Other people's dogs. I would totally use like, stealth camo or some Kawajiri Murder Master Ability and splatter them all over the place as they're being taken for a walk before screaming out the lyrics to "Satsugai," and nobody would suspect me because I'd be all Kawajiri Action Man. God, I hate dogs. Also, kids.

What was my point? Oh yeah, the only reason people's fantasy lives are different from reality is because we lack the ability to pull off our fantasy lives in reality. Anyone who claims any different is lying, possibly because the steps they need to take in order to make their fantasy lives reality entail having that deniability. So don't leave your kids with wildarmsheero, because he might have already figured out the escape route. Step one of his plan was to distance himself from the fact that he really likes Wild Arms and Gundam Wing. But I remember, sir. I REMEMBER.

Anonymous said...

Meh...while there may be a kernel of truth to that, I don't necessarily buy it wholesale. As much as I'm amused by watching animated or prosthetic heads explode, I'd be horrified if I saw something like that in real life. And despite your e-bravado, I'm guessing you might be too. :P

Do a person's fantasies indicate they're capable of doing--or have a desire to do--said things in real life? This is one of those slippery-slope arguments that not even the most brilliant of psychologists could ever definitively answer. But I think I could comfortably say, in the vast majority of cases...nah.

-Kamon

Gooberzilla said...

Kamon,

You're ignoring a very big part of the equation: the sexual impulse. Deriving entertainment from watching Kenshiro explode people's heads does not entail a physiological, sexual response. If a person masturbates to fictional images of children, it's probably fair game to assert that said person is a pedophile. It's also fairly safe to assume that most people would do anything to avoid having such a label attached to them, since the word has been demonized and conflated with child molestation.

Frankly, it's none of my business what a person thinks or fantasizes about in the privacy of their own home, just as long as no humans or animals are harmed in the process. But denial and rationalization can be symptoms of a much larger problem, and lovers of lolicon erotic artwork seem to display both in spades.

Anonymous said...

You're ignoring a very big part of the equation: the sexual impulse.

Hm? Some of the stuff that Daryl likes includes rape.

Tim Eldred said...

Some (including me) believe that rape is an expression of violence rather than sexual impulse, but now we's goin' WAY off topic.

How'bout that new Yamato trailer? Ain't that sumpin'?

VZ said...

How does liking anime schoolgirls=being a pedo anyway? Are shows like Lucky Star and Hidamari Sketch the tool of the devil?

Anyway I wanted to say as an artist myself, I feel that any art no matter how distasteful it may be should not be banned because art in general is the type of thing that never really hurts any one. I mean I don't think I've ever drawn anything of a distasteful nature.

Also to those that have kids, yes I understand you want to protect children from those that may potentially harm them but going after those who may look at artwork of 2D girls is not the way. Some of us actually can't stand real children anyway.

Gooberzilla said...

My point is that the parts of our human brains that are hard-wired to react to violence are not the same parts that are hard-wired to react to sexual stimuli, unless the brain in question is severely dysfunctional.

Cheering at the saw-blade decapitation in Commando is not biologically equivalent to masturbating to a Lucky Star doujinshi. One respond is coded to aggression, the fight-or-flight response. The other is coded to the reproductive urge. Attempting to equate the two behaviors is a deflection.

"How does liking anime schoolgirls=being a pedo anyway? Are shows like Lucky Star and Hidamari Sketch the tool of the devil?"

It's not, but that's why I didn't say "liking anime schoolgirls". I said "masturbating to fictional images of children". Don't try to twist my words. I'm talking about a very specific behavior here. I'm not talking about watching Azumanga Daioh, or laughing at Yotsuba's antics in Yotsuba&!. Neither of those should be considered taboo. It's only when the sexual impulse is applied - a sexual impulse directed at fictional characters that do not possess mature sexual characteristics - that the behavior becomes worrisome.

It's the combination of an adult sexual impulse with the image of children that skeeves people out. It's not one or the other separately. It's the combination.

Steve Harrison said...

You see, people just have NO memory, only the 'now' matters to them.

So quickly have the Clown Pistol Murders been forgotten.

Clearly Daryl's true nature has been shown.

I know Daryl traveled back in time to shoot Lee Harvey Oswald. Not to shut him up but because of his burning hatred of people with Three First Names.

I know because I traveled back in time to try and stop him, but I failed.

Wait...wait...*I* have Three First Names! He's coming after ME!

Andrew said...

"How'bout that new Yamato trailer? Ain't that sumpin'?"

Not really. Space opera anime is a dead genre that will never ever come back.

wah said...

>>One respond is coded to aggression, the fight-or-flight response.

Wait, are you trying to suggest that the urge to kill someone and get violent is better than the urge to make love with another human being--of age or not?

I dunno, if you ask me the part of the brain that enjoys graphic drawn depictions of violence is far more twisted than the part of the brain that enjoys drawn depictions of sex with fictional underage characters.

Anonymous said...

Goober: "If a person masturbates to fictional images of children, it's probably fair game to assert that said person is a pedophile."

What if they get hard during a Larry Clark movie?

"Cheering at the saw-blade decapitation in Commando is not biologically equivalent to masturbating to a Lucky Star doujinshi."

Those idiots who engaged in random shootings after playing GTA would argue otherwise.

Martyn said...

My point (way back up there somewhere) was that, I guess, if you squint, Japanese men sexualising children and obsessing over worlds filled with doe-eyed innocents could be seen as a way to rebel against the strict hierarchy of their society and it's ideas of manhood (as in 'coming of age') and adult behaviour. Keyword here is rebel, not protest. I don't actually think anyone decided that they'd draw a picture of Konata having sex with Kazama Kiryu as a Hard Hitting Political message.

That being said, I bet there's a dojin out there somewhere called 'protest songs', it just has that ring to it.

Martyn said...

Also, just a random point on the subject of fandom being (too) accepting of lolicon - it does amuse me that no one ever seems to think that Kawajiri (etc) Fan = Rapist, but yet Strike Witches/Lucky Star/K-On fan seems to necessarily = pedo.

Milo said...

The flurry of recent highly-defensive postings aren't very encouraging.

If your response to this discussion is "what about THESE PEOPLE, they're worse than us and no one does anything about it," that demonstrates you're more interested in simply making excuses than saying anything qualitative about your fetish.

So we're back to the "shut up and don't say anything negative about it" dichotomy.

"I'm not talking about watching Azumanga Daioh, or laughing at Yotsuba's antics in Yotsuba&!. Neither of those should be considered taboo. It's only when the sexual impulse is applied - a sexual impulse directed at fictional characters that do not possess mature sexual characteristics - that the behavior becomes worrisome.

It's the combination of an adult sexual impulse with the image of children that skeeves people out. It's not one or the other separately. It's the combination."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Gooberzilla said...

"Wait, are you trying to suggest that the urge to kill someone and get violent is better than the urge to make love with another human being--of age or not?"

No, what I'm saying is that bringing up violence in media is a dodge. It's not a comparable reaction. It only serves to cloud the issue.

Look at the words you're using. Legally speaking, an adult cannot "make love" with a child, because a child is legally incapable of consent.

"What if they get hard during a Larry Clark movie?"

Larry Clark's films are immune to obscenity prosecutions because you can make the case that they have politial, artistic, or social value. As for "getting hard" to them, that's not the issue here. It's not the physiological reaction that can be troublesome, it's the action that accompanies it. That's why I said specifically, if you masturbate to fictional images of children, you are probably a pedophile. That statement includes women, too. It's not just men that do that sort of thing.

"Those idiots who engaged in random shootings after playing GTA would argue otherwise."

I already addressed when I said "unless the brain in question is severely dysfunctional." Let's stop dancing around the issue here. The issue is not violence in the media, or whether violent media predisposes people to be violent, etc. We're talking about the disputed legality of lolicon erotic artwork, about the people that consume it, about their motivations, and about whether any thing can or should be done regarding the phenomena.

"Japanese men sexualising children and obsessing over worlds filled with doe-eyed innocents could be seen as a way to rebel against the strict hierarchy of their society and it's ideas of manhood (as in 'coming of age') and adult behaviour. Keyword here is rebel, not protest."

That I can believe, although I find it disturbing that they would use depictions of powerless children to establish their feelings of potency and sexual power. That said, I don't think there should be a law against it unless an accompanying risk of harm could be demonstrated.

Martyn said...

'I find it disturbing that they would use depictions of powerless children to establish their feelings of potency and sexual power'

I kind of meant that they do it in order to eschew the traditional ideas of potency or and sexual power.

Maybe.

Tim Eldred said...

"Space opera anime is a dead genre that will never ever come back."

Oh, sorry Mr. Overlord, the entire industry will make a point of checking with you about that before ever trying it again.

Robert Kelly said...

Daryl: I took your suggestion and read up on Mark Merlino. What I found, well... I don't see anything that sets me fanwank bells a-ringing, apart from what can be taken from Crush Yiff Destroy. What's the problem?

Anonymous said...

That's Sir Mr. Overlord to you. The failure of Tytania was pretty bad and I don't see much else on the horizon.

Mike Toole said...

Okay, you guys touched on it in the show, but let me spell out what the deal is with rights for stuff like Super Robot Wars and Capcom vs Tatsunoko.

Just pick up one of the Gatchaman DVDs. Don't pretend you don't own at least a few of them. Now you will notice that it says Gatchaman is (c) 1972 Tatsunoko. ADV Films do not enter into the equation, nor does the shambling zombie ghost of Sandy Frank. Get it?

Okay, now look at your copy of Aura Battler Dunbine volume 12. I have one, and I'm sure you all do as well, right? Anyway, it says (c) SUNRISE / SOTSU AGENCY. ADV does not own the rights to Dunbine across all media. They just licensed it for DVD release.

In other words, negotiation with U.S. companies simply does not enter into the picture with a release like Super Robot Wars or Capcom vs Tatsunoko. When Funimation releases the new Evangelion movie, they didn't have to dicker with ADV or Manga Entertainment over the use of the characters. When a U.S. company licenses an anime series for broadcast or DVD release, their rights do not extend any further than that. When Bandai released that wretched Lupin the 3rd PS2 game, Geneon/Phuuz did not have any say. Bandai Entertainment does not generally get involved with localization of Gundam video games. Funimation does get involved with Dragonball Z video games, but that is because they have (very, very intelligently) negotiated for rights to help produce games based on the franchise. This strategy has made them a shitload of money.

There are a couple of very notable exceptions to this-- World Events Productions seems to have Voltron/Golion locked down, and Harmony Gold won that lawsuit against Big West that grants them broad use of Macross stuff, and Fred Ladd's Delphi Productions owns the name GIGANTOR (but not the original property, which is why we got Tetsujin 28 released under its original title while Ben Dunn drew shitty Gigantor comics).

The reason that a property like Super Robot Wars hasn't been released is because it would involve dealing with several JAPANESE companies. Sunrise, Toei, Dynamic Planning, Tatsunoko, etc. These companies are all quite comfortable doing business in Japan, but we all know that this isn't the case overseas. I think a release is certainly feasible, but as has been noted, it would need to sell well to earn enough money to make it a success, and these games aren't built for U.S. mass appeal.

The reason we've gotten Capcom vs. Tatsunoko fairly easily because the characters belong to ONE company, and I'm pretty sure Capcom is basically handling everything for the localization. You will notice that some famous Tatsunoko characters, like Speed Racer and Hakushon Daimaoh, are absent from the U.S. release because other companies have all-media licenses for them.

Robert Kelly said...

Mike: so if it wasn't for that damned American gaming public, it could probably be feasible to release a non-OG Super Robot Wars game outside Japan, with enough money, time and... ah screw it.

Oh, just as a side note, Speed Racer isn't in the Japanese game, and considering what you said about the rights regarding that show, he probably won't be in the American release either.

Daryl Surat said...

Robert: The intent of my reference was to point out that furry fandom in the US--which came about at the same time as anime fandom in the US did, and as such is why many of the original US anime fans are also furries (ie Fred Patten)--which was initially somewhat innocuous was hijacked by sexual deviants long ago such that it's the beast we know of today.

MASSIVE DERAIL IMMINENT: from the field notes of Steve Gattuso, who was there from the beginning and saw it all unfold. Shortened because full story exceeds Blogger character limit:
------------------------
By the mid 80's, a few individuals...started holding informal gatherings at SF and comic conventions...On the West Coast, one of the main organizers for these parties was a pair of gay lovers named Mark Merlino (A.K.A. Sy Sable) and Rodney Stansfield (A.K.A. Rod O'Riley.) The parties they held were called furry parties, and very quickly the fandom started to be called furry.

...The first real stirrings of change were around the early 90's, with the rise of the World Wide Web and easy internet access...But coupled with a rather asinine move on Mark Merlino's part, this helped cause the nightmare that Furry is today....He started inviting folks from alternative lifestyle groups to come to the con, folks who couldn't tell Donald Duck from Daffy and didn't care as long as they had a place to go and a hole to fill. At CF6 they were barely noticeable, at CF7 they were appearing all over the place and by CF8, it was not uncommon to hear idiots in the hallways having the following conversation:

TWINK #1: What the hell is all this animal art & costumes?
TWINK #2: Who cares? I'm here for the parties.

…Even worse, they brought along with them a set of fetishes that would make the Marquis deSade look and go "Too sick for me, motherfuckers." Yeah, that includes a few assholes who thought it was an invitation to sleep with real animals.

CF8 was the straw that broke a lot of camel's backs...The twinks were making a deliberate point of being obnoxious to anyone they though of as "mundane."...Many furs…wanted to break away from all the sexual material completely…But it was too late…Fursuiting, essentially cosplay in funny animal costumes, turned from being associated with innocent games into something associated with the sexual and stupid.
------------------------

END DERAIL HERE OR DIE

Robert Kelly said...

Daryl: As a former resident of FurryMUCK and Taps (the same way Hannibal King was a former vampire, I bet), this sounds a lot like going over old road to me.

It also sounds a lot like anime fandom to me... All we need is a decent scapegoat to pin the blame on to replace Merlino's name, paedophilia to replace homosexuality/bisexuality and a con to place all the blame in and we'd be set.

VZ said...

In the show you were saying how the FOTNS DVD has subtitle problems. Can you elaborate if you were serious? I don't really care about any other Fist of the North Star media mind you (the TV anime had great OPs . So great that it was even included in the Lucky Star OVA). I like the movie more as a sort of "this was the indicative violent anime of the 80's" type of thing with high production values.

P.S. New Haruhi today! All hail Haruhi!

P.S.S. Queen's Blade S2 HAHAHAHAHA!

Anonymous said...

Speaking of the devil, that museum shooter was into child porn. But I guess being an armed neo-nazi's not as big a worry for the feds as an anime/manga fan....

Milo: "If your response to this discussion is "what about THESE PEOPLE, they're worse than us and no one does anything about it," that demonstrates you're more interested in simply making excuses than saying anything qualitative about your fetish."

No, I just want to know why one fetish is "better" than another.

"
Larry Clark's films are immune to obscenity prosecutions because you can make the case that they have politial, artistic, or social value. As for "getting hard" to them, that's not the issue here. It's not the physiological reaction that can be troublesome, it's the action that accompanies it. That's why I said specifically, if you masturbate to fictional images of children, you are probably a pedophile."

But Larry Clark's films do feature fictional images of children; and yet you're saying that it's ok to get aroused by his stuff, because it's "artistic", but loli manga is a "gateway drug".

Mike: "Just pick up one of the Gatchaman DVDs. Don't pretend you don't own at least a few of them. Now you will notice that it says Gatchaman is (c) 1972 Tatsunoko. ADV Films do not enter into the equation, nor does the shambling zombie ghost of Sandy Frank. Get it?"

Yeah, but DiC(ks) enters the equation in regard to the second series.

"In other words, negotiation with U.S. companies simply does not enter into the picture with a release like Super Robot Wars or Capcom vs Tatsunoko."

That depends on whether or not whoever handled Tranzor Z and that "five-part" show still owns the Japanese stuff. And HG's likely to cock-block anything with Macross they don't own themselves; but then Bandai and Victor are doing the same in Japan, so...

"When Bandai released that wretched Lupin the 3rd PS2 game, Geneon/Phuuz did not have any say."

The Geneon staff was used for the dub, though. And that might be what TMS wanted.

"Funimation does get involved with Dragonball Z video games, but that is because they have (very, very intelligently) negotiated for rights to help produce games based on the franchise. This strategy has made them a shitload of money."

But if we ever wants new ports of the Famicom, Genesis, PSX, and Saturn fighting games, then we're fucked. Try asking Nintendo to put those on the VC, or Bandai to put out a collection on the DS and PSP, and see what happens.

"World Events Productions seems to have Voltron/Golion locked down,"

Only the original shows. Anything else means paying off Toei.

"and Fred Ladd's Delphi Productions owns the name GIGANTOR (but not the original property, which is why we got Tetsujin 28 released under its original title while Ben Dunn drew shitty Gigantor comics)"

I'm guessing that has more to do with the assumption that casual anime fans wouldn't watch an old show like Gigantor, anyway. And all Geneon would really need to do is connect Tetsujin to the staff involved on The Big O.

"The reason we've gotten Capcom vs. Tatsunoko fairly easily because the characters belong to ONE company, and I'm pretty sure Capcom is basically handling everything for the localization."

Well, that's not entirely true. Lion's Gate is still sitting on the dubbed and edited Speed Racer, while Paramount is still sitting on the dubbed and edited Casshern. And Manga got that new one from the company, while Imagi has the LA rights to Gatchman. My guess is the real reason Capcom got the game over here is that those titles in question are, once again, niche to contemporary audiences, and the licensors feels the game would be a big boost for their respective properties.

Milo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Milo said...

"No, I just want to know why one fetish is "better" than another. "

I've already explained what sets this particular fetish apart and separate from others. I DON'T KNOW if the loli fetish is any more dangerous than other fetishes; I simply recognize that there is a controversial aspect to it not inherent to other fetishes, and I am somewhat disgusted that any attempt to discuss that fact is always met with the sort of evasive behavior you're exhibiting right now.

Trying to say that it's all just a wash, and that all fetishes are equal, is either irresponsible or moronic, for the reasons I've probably explained three times at least.

Some old nobody said...

How's this for an answer on why people don't like to say that some of the lolicon crowd are sort of creepy, Milo?

People fapping to "manga with 8 year old girls with 100 tits growing dicks spewing" squick me right the f--- out. I think it's creepy as hell.

But, I nevertheless hold a position that people shouldn't go to jail for drawings and stories no matter how disgusting I personally think they are. It's not really for these people's sake. It's because I honestly believe in slippery slopes -- If some prosecutor or judge in Iowa, Utah, or Alabama wants to look "tough on kiddie porn," and drape themselves in "family values," and while they'd rather prosecute that shit, they'll settle for prosecuting Kodomo no Jikan, or if they don't have that handy, maybe they move up to the Utena movie, or maybe if they don't have that, they move to damn Evangelion. And I want a sharp bright line there. I don't want someone facing the possibility of having to spend many thousands of dollars for the mere chance to convince a jury of Alabama evangelical Christians that Utena or Evangelion have artistic value, or else face decades in a prison system that a civilized people should be ashamed of. I want laws and precedents that can't be interpreted that way.

Therefore, the last thing I want to talk about is the creeps. It emotionally distracts me from the principle, and it emotionally distracts others from the principle. It's like the question of allowing the Ku Klux Klan to march. The more I focus on what scum they are, the harder is is to remember the principles of free speech and free assembly, and the easier it is to make just this one exception because these people are outside the pale. But it's never just one exception.

So, yeah, the reason I talk about the principle and not the creep is because I don't like the creep. Letting him go is the shit sandwich I have to eat to keep the important part. And I really don't want to dwell on the taste any more than I have to.

Gooberzilla said...

I agree with everything said in the above post by Some old nobody.

"But Larry Clark's films do feature fictional images of children; and yet you're saying that it's ok to get aroused by his stuff, because it's "artistic", but loli manga is a "gateway drug"."

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. If you were to masturbate to Larry Clark's films, specifically to fictional depictions of teenagers or children having sex, then the same definition applies. Sexual arousal is an unconscious physical response; masturbation is a conscious choice to act upon that response. Don't tell me you can't appreciate the difference between the two.

Anonymous said...

Goober: That's bullshit. Why are you more likely to be a pedophile, just because you jerk off to something, but not solely because it turns you on?

Tim Eldred said...

Wow. And with that, we just left orbit. Anon, you need to go back up and reread everything Goober wrote, because you totally missed it. Do it out loud with someone else in the room to help you. As for me, I'm officially exhausted and completely done with this. Bet everyone else is, too.

Chris Sobieniak said...

VZ said...
I don't have much to add. I think the whole Handley case is fucked up just because we're all moral panic alarmists when is comes to the safety of children.

Stuff like that makes you want to leave the country doesn't it!

You guys didn't talk about the shitty pay animators in japan get or the poll Funimation did for what current anime they should licensed.

Ugh, don't even bother!

Gilles Poitras said...
Also folks need to remember, as you pointed out, that these charges apply to any character under the age of 18. So May's blow job in v.1 of Gunsmith Cats is problematic as is damn near any erotic anime and manga released in the US.

You see why it came back to bite us in the ass!

Gooberzilla said...
Under the letter of the law, just about anything that fails the three-pronged obscenity test could land you in jail, even materials that are legally released in the United States.

Minmei is supposedly 19 years old in that scene, but good luck trying to prove that to an unsympathetic jury.


Welcome to the U.S. of A.!

Let this be a lesson to all of you!

Brack said...
On Tatsunoko rights: it looks like the rights for Battle of the Planets may have expired.

I've heard of that too. Apparently Sandy Frank has no say i it now, thank GOD!

Anonymous said...
Goober: Perhaps, but are they really going to go after someone who buys "The Aristocrats" through Amazon? I think they only went after Handley, because he was in one of those Bible Belt states, where anything foreign in the mail is automatically viewed as a terrorist threat. [At least I hope that's the case.] Christ, that guy who got jailed for selling the Urotsukidoji comic to an adult should have his case appealed on the same legal basis as a court finally overturning Texas ban on vibrators.

Didn't know they were illegal down there! I learned something today!

Daryl Surat said...
And Iowa's not part of the Bible Belt. It's part of the Grain Belt or whatever they call it. North Florida is definitely part of the Bible Belt, but the region of Florida we inhabit is considered exempt from this as it's the sole member of the "Men Who Wear White Belts" belt. Okay, that's actually a 15 year-old joke from Almost Live! which I can't personally vouch for. WHATEVER.

I loved that show, fine Seattle comedy!

Thanks for that Godzilla story Tim, I needed a good laugh today!

But this is a podcast about Japanese moving pictures, so why am I getting into all that?

We have to! We have the right to bitch wherever we want!

This fandom has gone from a society for the promotion of japanese cartoons to trying to defend simulated rape and virtual child porn. Cries of moe = hooray, I'm a low status male who feels empowered by masturbating to disgusting things.

Now you see why some of us want to get out!

Steve Harrison said...
Wah, don't get sucked into the 'Left Vs. Right' game on this. Recall it was Tipper Gore who pushed the labeling of music and videogames to 'protect the children'.

Thank you Tippy! :-(

And if you're specifically seeking out this kind of material just to piss people off, and not because it fulfills some sort of sexual fetish, may I humbly suggest you find a more constructive hobby, one that couldn't result in federal obscenity prosecutions?

Like making pot holders!

Daryl Surat said...
Robert: The intent of my reference was to point out that furry fandom in the US--which came about at the same time as anime fandom in the US did, and as such is why many of the original US anime fans are also furries (ie Fred Patten)--which was initially somewhat innocuous was hijacked by sexual deviants long ago such that it's the beast we know of today.

People need to be reminded there was a time when both Anime and Furry fandom were nearly one!

Anonymous said...

I did read Goober's argument. He/she said that Clark's films are "artistic", even though they tend to go overboard in their depiction of "virtual child porn". So, because it's artistic, it's ok to get turned on by it, even if the sexual situations also involve people who resemble minors? I'm just curious, since, if I were a parent, I sure as fuck wouldn't want a guy like Larry Clark with a camera near my kids!

But at the same time, I'm being told a guy or gal who doesn't do that kind of a crap with a camera, but with a pen and paper, is the real threat. And if that's the case, well, why does no one bat an eye at Welcome to the NHK, even though it clearly treads into the same territory, regardless of whether or not it's ironic? Who knows how many otaku interpret that series as a "love letter", rather than a "wake-up call"? But no one questions the intentions of creator of NHK or Clark, even though their "imaginations" aren't exactly clean. Meanwhile, anyone who watches or reads this stuff is automatically subject to scrutiny.

Anyway, I'm just saying you can't have it both ways. You either argue that that shit is art, or "wannabe" child porn. And if you're going to say the former, then you can't tell me that anyone who gets turned on from it is a deviant, because you've argued that it's, at the very least, as acceptable as regular porn.

Anonymous said...

Oh, fuck it. Just erase my last rant. As Tim pointed out, I misinterpreted what Goober said. Sorry about that one.

Tim Eldred said...

Spoken like a gentleman.

OK, AWO'ers time for the next episode. This one's completely cooked.

Anime3000 said...

Great Podcast. I look forward to all your episodes.

Anonymous said...

(This is arromdee. Am at work and forgot my password...)

To the person who suggested that people who cannot access Funimation due to being in the wrong country use a proxy to fake a country: Sure, you can do it, but it's illegal. You're intentionally trying to copy something that the owners told you (by virtue of being in the wrong country) not to copy. If you're willing to do that, you may as well just get an equally illegal fansub instead.

About Fist of the North Star: there was some talk on Anime on DVD and a guy put up a web page. Examples included a place where the name of an attack was translated as "Nanto can't be harmed" and another where "brother" was consistently translated as "Master". See here.

I really do hope we get a fuller review of this on the show, however. There don't seem to be a lot of independent complaints about the subtitles; all the complaints seem to be copies of this one source.

Daryl Surat said...

I really do hope we get a fuller review of this on the show, however. There don't seem to be a lot of independent complaints about the subtitles; all the complaints seem to be copies of this one source.

For what it's worth Ken, we met once very briefly at AWA about ten years ago: I had you sign my program guide because I was getting assorted regular attendees to sign it instead of guests...though I confess to knowing at the time that you were the guy who wrote the alt.fan.sailor-moon FAQ.

Anyway, I have never seen that page you linked to in my life until you just posted it a few minutes ago. But I can guarantee you that "Hokuto Kenshin" is frequently used in that subtitle script, and I will note that all of those screencaps appear to be legit ones.

Anonymous said...

(Arromdee again)

I must admit I only very vaguely remember being asked to sign something. I think my reaction was something like "Uhh, people are making this out to be a bigger deal than it really is".

I wasn't skeptical about that Fist of the North Star page because I thought the screenshots were faked. It's just that some of the errors seemed to be translation style choices or unintentionally funny lines taken out of context. It wasn't clear what the proportion was of these compared to real errors like the Kenshin one.

Milo said...

arromdee, KentaiFilms is an extremely reliable source. He's not just some "guy", he's a genuinely awesome guy who spends enormous chunks of his life translating and beautifying crappily authored anime for fans of some of the best stuff ever.

Just throwing that out there, because his (qualified) opinion carries a lot of weight in many circles. Honestly, it told me everything I needed to know about the HnK release. That won't stop me from buying it, however.

Anonymous said...

"In other bad news, Shojo Beat is no longer accepting subscriptions. A magazine we all thought was doing well, but was probably like Pulp, the mid-90's manga anthology by Viz that everyone seemed to like and no one bought."

It probably did better than Pulp, but came out at the tail end of the manga(particularly shojo manga) boom; so it was never going to be as big as Jump. Plus, like Animerica Extra, Watase was the only big name in it again. But, like Raijin, SB had much more diverse and interesting content than SJ. Anyway, 40,000 fan-girl subscribers[Assuming they're all fan-girls.] is still probably higher than it would've been 10 years ago. And considering teen girls like to jump ship from one fad to another more than guys, the fact that Viz is still able to make money off the TPBs[Again, assuming they're making money.] is pretty impressive.

"Finally, as a warning to Kenta Miura of Berserk fame, Kaoru Kurimoto has passed away,"

Speaking of Berserk, I like how the recent U.S. volume has Puck "cosplaying" as the manager from Ashita No Joe. It's been a while since Miura had this kind of fun with the series.

Anonymous said...

The more your opinions on virtual child porn defer from those of human rights organizations, funded by politicians and millions of people worldwide, the more attention you'll get. Pretty soon anime isn't just going to be "just cartoons" and not worth the attention of people outside that fandom, it will be correlated with a host of societal problems.

It's happening right now and I applaud it.

Anonymous said...

^I would love to rant about human rights organizations and how they're full of extremely good intentions but often offer an extremely poor diagnosis of the real problems, resulting in very few actual changes or viable solutions regardless of their efforts, but that would be too off-topic.

What I will say is that even if you blacklisted all sexualized anime from civilized society because of its real or imagined effects, due to the actions of individuals such as Handley, the underlying social problems will still not be resolved. People take refuge in such things because their lives, personalities and families are inherently flawed. That's the real issue.

Anonymous said...

"I would love to rant about human rights organizations and how they're full of extremely good intentions but often offer an extremely poor diagnosis of the real problems, resulting in very few actual changes or viable solutions regardless of their efforts, but that would be too off-topic."


No, actually it wouldn't be off topic.

Share why you believe the bias you have based on your cartoons stands up to the reasonable arguments presented by child welfare and human rights organizations.

Anonymous said...

Also if you'd be so kind, name them and give specific criticism.

Gooberzilla said...

I fail to see what child welfare and human rights organizations have to do with lines drawn on pieces of paper.

Are you seriously suggesting that child welfare and human rights organizations posit a causal relationship between works of fiction and criminal acts? That pornography leads to sexual assault? That violent entertainment leads to real life acts of violence?

finalanimestop said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Yeah consumption of violent pornography actually does correlate with a diminished perception of women as equal human beings, that's a bit of the point of women's studies over the last few decades.


I'm glad the guy was intercepted by a postal employee before he fucked some little cousin of his or something. Exactly because kids are part of the most vulnerable members of our society and crimes against them are among the least reported.

Anonymous said...

"Share why you believe the bias you have based on your cartoons stands up to the reasonable arguments presented by child welfare and human rights organizations."

Well, no one ever actually blew up a building or raped anyone after watching Fritz the Cat, so...

"Yeah consumption of violent pornography actually does correlate with a diminished perception of women as equal human beings"

That must be why fundy Islamic countries which ban porn treat women with the utmost respect. Oh, wait!

"I'm glad the guy was intercepted by a postal employee before he fucked some little cousin of his or something."

And I'm glad that hypothetical bomb the employee could've been looking for instead managed to get through inspections. But who the hell really cares if the next Tim McVeigh gets his easy-to-assemble-and-hide high-powered rifle and scope delivered to his house? We managed to nail a perp for smuggling a drawing into the country, and saved the children in the process!

Doesn't matter that he's never actually been proven to molest children, mind you. We know exactly what he's going to do next, based on what he reads. After all, look how many crimes were committed in the 50s and 60s from Mad Magazine and Tales from the Crypt. They were right to try to ban it, too.

Gooberzilla said...

"Yeah consumption of violent pornography actually does correlate with a diminished perception of women as equal human beings, that's a bit of the point of women's studies over the last few decades."

I said pornography, not violent pornography. Violent pornography is a small subset of a much larger genre. But as long as we're at it, what else should we ban? Group sex pornography? Costume play? BDSM? Gay pornography?

I've read writings by feminists that were both against and in favor of pornography, so it isn't safe to say there is only a single reigning opinion on its effects.

And finally, correlation is not the same as causation. In Seduction of the Innocent, Fredric Wertham noted a correlation between troubled teenagers and comic book reading. This does not prove that reading comic books makes teenagers into criminals. Likewise, just because serial murderers and rapists often exhibit an interest in violent pornography does not mean that the pornography is causing their aberrent, anti-social behavior.

Let's face it, fiction - especially erotic or violent fiction - is always someone's buggerboo. There are people that believe that works of art somehow have the magic ability to warp the minds of their viewers, to goad them into criminal acts, etc. I think such a belief is backward and superstitious. Consuming lolicon artwork may make a person a pedophile, but it doesn't necessarily imply that they are a child molester and a danger to the community. Until it proves a danger to someone, a sexual fetish is just a thought. And people shouldn't go to prison for a thought.

Anonymous said...

No one cares what your cartoon fandom-oriented bias is since laws concerning this seem to be tightening with increased awareness of its existence. I'm not arguing with you, I'm making fun of you.

Meanwhile 2/3rds of sex offenders in prisons have used a child.

And

1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18.


With this in mind proponency of the magnitude seen in anime fans either marks fetishism or total detachment from the real world. Or both. That is why no one does or will ever take you seriously. Ever.

Steve Harrison said...

I would have a great deal more confidence in this whole discussion if the anonymous option wasn't being so abused. I know it's a tricky thing to block anon posts (DO NOT want to shut out Carl Horn's wisdom and stuff!) but it's getting silly now.

Altho the days of HAVING to have a Blogger account to post are gone, that Name/URL button works for ANYBODY, and you don't even need to link a URL, so, just saying.

I kinda get the whiff of Troll now.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
VZ said...

>Meanwhile 2/3rds of sex offenders in prisons have >used a child.

>And

>1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
>1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18.

Again with the moral panic alarmist media hype BS.

Statistics like that are generally fudged mainly do to the media hyped about "evil child predators lurking at every corner. Be afraid". They do that to scare people.

And you're right, Otaku such as ourself don't give a shit about the real world.

Anonymous said...

Didn't know the Orguss composer was genuinely Anglo. I thought he was just imitating what was popular at the time. But man, they really don't make that kind of music on either side of the Pacific. J-pop killed the funk in Japan, while Lilith Fair, Jive Records, and Canadian and Europop killed music in general in the States.

Gerald said...

I should probably give credit where credit is due. I likely wouldn't have known about the Orguss singer dying if Eeeper hadn't talked about it. I'm now somewhat curious is he ever did any more Anime music since I haven't found him involved in anything else other then Orguss.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of gaijin who hang out doing music in Japan, AWO should interview Kevin Kmetz one of these days. He's got some sweet anime theme song covers on Youtube.

Steve Harrison said...

ya know, someone could have just asked me to point them somewhere, it's what I do. What you need to know about Casey Rankin:

http://ii-jidai.livejournal.com/28155.html

my friend Ardith has the scoop, because it's what she does.

Anonymous said...

"Statistics like that are generally fudged mainly do to the media hyped about "evil child predators lurking at every corner. Be afraid". They do that to scare people."

It's taken from a .gov website.


"And you're right, Otaku such as ourself don't give a shit about the real world."

Judging from the comments, yes, I'd say so.

Anonymous said...

I just like that the best you can come up with is a nameless site with a .gov domain, and not a specific link.

Anonymous said...

http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/ncmain/ncdocs/fact_shts/fs_child_sexual_abuse.html

"I just like that the best you can come up with is a nameless site with a .gov domain, and not a specific link."

24-25% is uniformly reported for women and in other studies males have varied greatly. Of course who am I kidding, if every kid was raped before the age of 18 you'd still be a whiny creep about the sarcosanctity of pedophilia.

Anonymous said...

"24-25% is uniformly reported for women and in other studies males have varied greatly. Of course who am I kidding, if every kid was raped before the age of 18 you'd still be a whiny creep about the sarcosanctity of pedophilia."

Anonymous has over 9000 penises, and they are all raping children.

Anonymous said...

"if every kid was raped before the age of 18 you'd still be a whiny creep about the sarcosanctity of pedophilia."

That's totally fucking disingenuous! My issue is where do you take this kind of argument that Handley should be arrested next? Does that mean any science teacher in a public school who discusses sex ed could be construed as soliciting sexual favors from minors? Also, your link does not include your prior statistics. More importantly, though, it does not cite a connection between reading drawings and abuse.

ogiuemaniax said...

There's a problem with the statistics being thrown around recently by one of the Anonymous in these comments.

"1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18."

Let's just assume that these statistics are 100% true. No arguing, no questioning whether the US government made any mistakes. Roughly 1 out of 5 children are sexually abused.

Now then, what does this have to do with a guy like Christopher Handley, who has absolutely no real child pornography in his possession and for that matter was never found to have actually sexually abused any children?

I will agree that those statistics are fitting with the context of this conversation, but the mere usage of statistics is not enough to support your point when it is not directly relevant to the case at hand. I can say that there's a 50% divorce rate in America and be right about that, but what real relevance would it have if, say, the discussion was about first dates? Perhaps some of those first dates would eventually lead to marriage, which then might turn sour and lead to divorce.

You can throw actual real numbers around, but all you're doing with them is creating smokescreen, and trying to act as if your disgust is enough to distract from the fact that your argument requires that a direct link to lolicon and those 1 in 5 child abuse cases to be found, and more importantly for Handley to be a potential example of this.

So maybe Handley could potentially be a pedophile and child abuser. It turns out he's not, but he might be some day, is what you seem to be saying.

And thus you are trying to punish a man for crimes he MIGHT commit eventually, when there is no record or evidence of him abusing any children.

And if you can't see what's wrong with that, there's no helping you.

Anonymous said...

Anyway, I love the double standard. Handley's a pedo, but that guy who'd normally be in prison for dating someone almost ten years his junior gets a pass, just because he's with Hannah what's-her-face.

Anonymous said...

Looking at lolicon should put you on a watchlist just like owning The Turner Diaries

Anonymous said...

I'm not joking, by the way. Anyone who looks at lolicon is a disgusting monster on par with the nastiest and most latently violent of racists morally speaking.

Except it's with children and not black people.

Chris Sobieniak said...

That must be why fundy Islamic countries which ban porn treat women with the utmost respect. Oh, wait!

Now that makes me laugh!

And you're right, Otaku such as ourself don't give a shit about the real world.

Reasons to think about quitting while you're still alive!

ketsuronqed said...

And the child pron controversy bandwagon keeps rolling on...

There was a conference about the controversy held rrecently, attended by the Japanese political parties and several speakers. The statements given by a representative of the Liberal Democratic Party is just ridiculous:

Any film, book or photo that contains a nude person under 18, regardless of artistic merit, should be thrown away.

A certain popular gravure book should be child porn because the photo shoot was two months before the model's 18th birthday.

If somebody in porn looks young and is wearing a school uniform, then it's child porn.

A singer of Johnny's going barechested is child porn too.

(Musical break: "Have a banana!")

The police are all nice people who won't step on any toes making arrests.

And so on and so forth.

If any of these statements make it into law, then the Japanese goverment is a joke. That's just my opinion and all, but this is so farcial, I don't believe that any Japanese would really take it seriously.

Son_of_Zion said...

Nice segment btw.
I’m not going to touch this conversation whit a 10 feet pole...
It´s like dropping a clown pistol in a room whit monkeys.
(There will be blood)

Keep up the nice podcast and cheers from Sweden.

Anonymous said...

"A certain popular gravure book should be child porn because the photo shoot was two months before the model's 18th birthday."

Yes it's not like that ridiculous law would abolish porn shoots featuring people who are nowhere near 18.

Robert Kelly said...

"Yes it's not like that ridiculous law would abolish porn shoots featuring people who are nowhere near 18."

It might drive Johnny's Entertainment out of business, though...

Anonymous said...

AWO, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do a review of whatever this comes from:

http://engrishfunny.com/2009/07/01/engrish-eat-poop/

Anonymous said...

Sometimes I can't help but think that Mr. Surat is a psychopath.

Milo said...

And now for something completely different... Hokuto no Ken Raoh Gaiden: Ten no Haoh has been licensed!

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-07-01/sentai-filmworks-adds-fist-of-the-north-star-side-story

This is awesome for two reasons: 1.) it's HnK-related and 2.) something is being licensed that hasn't actually been fansubbed already.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have the OVA/film revival licensed, but this is awesome news all the same! Will be buying like fist of the fucking northstar.